I remember hearing that Morrison had said something along those lines, but if I ever saw any more “in-depth explanation” of just what he meant by it, then the details have long since fled my memory.

Near as I can recall, my basic reaction was: “Does he mean ‘canonical’ in the sense that they all happened to the same guy as part of the same timeline? If so, how do we reconcile the stories about Batman and Catwoman being happily married for 20 years or so with the idea that Batman and Catwoman, as it now stands, are still in their thirties and have never been married? Not to mention all the other cases where one story or group of stories blatantly contradicts another story or set of stories?”

Have you read his run?
He pretty much shows what he means there – it all happened, just some of it happened under the influence of toxins, or were experiences in self-deprivation tanks.
Were Batman and Catwoman married in the DCU proper, or over on Earth 2?
Because Earth 2 stories are only canon over on Earth 2.

This story really points up the problems with trying to decide that, clearly, continuity is determined by which stories are best. I’ve read Batman and the Monster Men, and it’s good. After reading the Englehart issues referenced here… they’re really just as good. I really don’t think you could easily declare one story better than the other save through the arbitration of pure personal taste.

Imagine how much better the Joker’s appearance in “Under the Hood” would have worked if we hadn’t seen him for a year before that and didn’t see him again for two years after that?

Well, I read on a comics site that Morrison intended to make all past Batman stories canonical, so I believe that when he mentioned the serum he was talking about the Golden Age story.

I remember hearing that Morrison had said something along those lines, but if I ever saw any more “in-depth explanation” of just what he meant by it, then the details have long since fled my memory.

Near as I can recall, my basic reaction was: “Does he mean ‘canonical’ in the sense that they all happened to the same guy as part of the same timeline? If so, how do we reconcile the stories about Batman and Catwoman being happily married for 20 years or so with the idea that Batman and Catwoman, as it now stands, are still in their thirties and have never been married? Not to mention all the other cases where one story or group of stories blatantly contradicts another story or set of stories?”

I’m astounded by your suggestion that the early stories (the Golden Age ones, I take it you mean?) are stronger, and resonate more, and thus matter more than anything else that’s been done with Hugo since the days of the Englehart/Rogers run in the 1970s.

When I first read Hugo’s first appearance, in a reprint volume years ago, I thought it was very crudely done, and easily could have featured any “criminal genius with a weird invention available.” Very little in the way of character development, I felt; and of course it was just one of several little stories published in the same comic, so it had a lot less time to offer cute little details than a modern writer can afford to squeeze in when he’s scripting a 5-part or 6-part story arc!

Whether Killing Joke was supposed to be in continuity or not is something I address in my book, Was Superman a Spy?: and Other Comic Book Legends Revealed!

I knew I’d read it somewhere, even though I can’t remember which way it went.
I searched the archives here for a while looking for it.

And now, why I really don’t care about continuity…

Do you know of any statement, by Wagner or by any Batman editors, to the effect that the mini was supposed to be “firmly in continuity from now on”?

Nope, but it sure seems to be how it works with continuity these days – and it did get a sequel.
Why else did they set it so firmly in the time line, making sure things line up from Year One and going into The Long Halloween?
The back of the books say it shows his first dealings with super pwoered people, and Wagner gives the impression that it’s canon here http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=5757 .
I really like it, so to me, it is how they first met and fought.

Is it your position that Wagner wanted to erase all previous Hugo stories in one fell swoop, thereby giving the character a Second Reboot? Because if we take every word of “Batman and the Monster Men” as being rock-solid continuity, then the implicit erasure of all previous Hugo stories seems to be the logical consequence!

No, I think he was just doing a better (or more modern) telling of the first meeting between the two.
This is what would have happened in Batman #1 if that’s how they told the stories then (ie. knowing it would be going for ages, and building up the lore).

For instance: As I mentioned in the original post, the way Wagner made Hugo much shorter than Bruce, and bowlegged to boot, tends to cut off at the knees any story which rested on the premise that Hugo figured he could successfully disguise himself as Batman (and/or “Bruce Wayne”) if he tried hard enough!

He was pretty darn buff though, and with some platform boots, or some mechanical devices, he could pull it off – don’t underestimate him just because he’s short!

t’s the sort of logic which a politician can appreciate . . .

Logic? Gotham? No way!
Honestly, how crap is Gordon if he still has gotten rid of all the corrupt cops?
The Mayor was just on the take or something.

And yes, when I take a serious look at how convoluted the continuity of some characters has gotten (as I did with Hugo Strange in this instance, or a whole passel of Supergirls in an even longer Timeline of which I’ve written four drafts over the years!), I understand the appeal of the suggested solution of doing “universal reboots” to clear the decks at regular intervals. Some have argued this should have been done after COIE, and some were hoping it would be done after “Infinite Crisis” a few years ago, and/or in the wake of “Final Crisis” more recently . . . and of course DC in the Silver Age did something similar to most of its characters (although there was no clearly defined “transition point” for Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman to switch over from Earth-2 to Earth-1 continuity) . . .

I admit that a new writer’s job on an old title would be much easier if he were told: “All you need to know about Joker, Catwoman, Riddler, or any other specific villain you want to use, is whatever’s been published within the last eight years, since our Last General Reboot. Anything before that is gone with the wind, ashes to ashes and dust to dust!” (As long as these “reboot points” were also clearly and repeatedly explained to the fans, so that they understood there was no point in bellyaching to DC about the new writer’s contradictions of once-popular stories from “fifteen years ago” or whatever!)

On the other hand, I don’t agree with you that paranormal stuff in general is supposed to be off-limits in Batman’s core titles. I admit that I sometimes feel unhappy when I see him go up against evil witchcraft, or demons, or vampires, in his own stories . . . but there are exceptions to that, and since he lives in the same universe as Superman, Zatanna, The Spectre, etc., I don’t seriously expect DC’s writers to have the guy in “Batman” and “Detective Comics” insist that there is no such thing as black magic, no way, no how! (Some writers have had him take such inflexible positions on certain aspects of alleged supernatural phenomena, and that damages my suspension of disbelief something awful!)

(Although, by and large, I really don’t like seeing Batman’s high-powered friends be allowed to guest-star in his core titles. I think they ought to stay offstage, although occasionally alluded to, in that context.)

A couple of questions about that:

1. Do you know of any statement, by Wagner or by any Batman editors, to the effect that the mini was supposed to be “firmly in continuity from now on”?

2. Is it your position that Wagner wanted to erase all previous Hugo stories in one fell swoop, thereby giving the character a Second Reboot? Because if we take every word of “Batman and the Monster Men” as being rock-solid continuity, then the implicit erasure of all previous Hugo stories seems to be the logical consequence!

For instance: As I mentioned in the original post, the way Wagner made Hugo much shorter than Bruce, and bowlegged to boot, tends to cut off at the knees any story which rested on the premise that Hugo figured he could successfully disguise himself as Batman (and/or “Bruce Wayne”) if he tried hard enough!

Hugo dressing up as Batman and looking pretty convincing in that tight blue-and-gray outfit happened in “Prey,” for instance, which is the story you say Wagner was trying to set things up for. I might also mention that in “Prey” as it was written, neither Bruce nor Gordon had any suspicion, initially, that Hugo was more than a law-abiding psychiatrist with a thirst for tracking down and analyzing Batman and presumably getting some glory from it, but in Wagner’s mini, Batman and Gordon both know what sort of wacko Hugo is by the end of the series — they are just handicapped by all the physical evidence having gone up in flames, and Batman being extremely unwilling to testify in court as the sole witness to what he personally observed Hugo doing.

If Gordon had known Hugo was a villain, I think he would have objected strenuously to having the guy shoehorned into the new Anti-Batman Task Force. He could have taken the mayor aside and said that there were some nasty rumors about Hugo’s work on human subjects which Gordon was still trying to prove or disprove, but it might be a good idea for the mayor to carefully distance himself from Hugo right now, before things got too terribly embarrassing with public disclosures later on. That’s the sort of logic which a politician can appreciate . . .

Either a story is part of the continuity or it isn’t.

It really bothers you?
Can’t the adventure stand on it’s own regardless?

‘Killing Joke’ was never supposed to be in continuity either…

Are we sure about that?
Because they wrapped Batgirl up, and Barbara didn’t appear around walking the next time she appeared, which is pretty good handling or a comic company…
But there you go, the better written story takes the place.

to know the secret id and who’s trying to break him down psychologically`, and Hugo never even made the short list of suspects…

It would’ve been a massive let down.

Talk about understatement.