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CSBG Archive

A Year of Cool Comic Book Moments – Day 238

Here is the latest cool comic book moment in our year-long look at one cool comic book moment a day (in no particular order whatsoever)! Here‘s the archive of the moments posted so far!

Today we look at a classic Thing versus Doctor Doom moment from Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four…

In Fantastic Four #40, drawn by Jack Kirby and written by Stan Lee, Doctor Doom has basically won the day. The Fantastic Four has one last shot – turning Ben Grimm back into the Thing to fight Doom, whether Ben wants it or not – the fate of the world rests on his rocky shoulders…

After a dramatic entrance by the Thing, the fight ensues…

Classic Lee/Kirby scene here.

“The” moment for me is when the Thing finally breaks through and breaks Doom down.

54 Comments

Me, I’d have gone with “The Thing must live again!” It’s the irony of Reed being forced to make Ben into the Thing again that made Stan Lee the equivalent of a modern Greek tragedy writer.

ARGH! Why did Vinnie Colletta have to ink these great pages!?! If only Joe Sinnott had come by a little bit sooner…

“It’s the irony of Reed being forced to make Ben into the Thing again that made Stan Lee the equivalent of a modern Greek tragedy writer.”

Jesus, I hate statements like this. Protip: Stan Lee did as little as possible when it came to plotting and writing ANYTHING. The artists and underlings did the brunt of the work. How dare you leave Kirby out of the equation…he took the bare plots that Lee gave him and fleshed them out into actual stories. Ever read the account of how the Silver Surfer was created? That is a prime example of how little Lee contributed to the stories that bore his name as writer.

The “Marvel Method” that Lee came up with was to pitch a general idea to the staff and then have them do the bulk of the work while Lee later claimed credit for it.

He’s no modern Greek tragedy writer. The real tragedy was the number of talented people such as Kirby that Lee drove away from Marvel because of these type of things.

Man, I can’t stand Stan Lee.

“It’s the irony of Reed being forced to make Ben into the Thing again that made the Marvel Bullpen the equivalent of a modern Greek tragedy writer.”

Edited to avoid a flame war. Happy now?

It’s true Kirby didn’t get the true recognition he deserved at the time — although a lot of that has been rectified over the past 25 years or so — but giving the man his due shouldn’t come at the expense of Lee. Sure Lee was a showman and a promoter, and his hyperbole and other tics eventually fell into self-parody, but super hero comic books, for better or for worse, wouldn’t have become what they did without his writing. Or, as a wise man once said, with Stan Lee, you get the Silver Surfer — without him, you get the Black Racer.

Anyone ever done a count of how many times Ben was cured and then turned back into the Thing? I bet Lorendiac has.

But with Stan Lee you DON’T get the Silver Surfer.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/272564/the_real_rise_of_the_silver_surfer.html

Lee gave Kirby the outline for the Galactus storyline which was pretty much these four words, and these four words alone: “Have them fight God” (read Evanier’s book on Kirby for the story or just search the web) then Kirby went and fleshed out the actual story. When he brought in the rough drafts to Lee, Stan pointed to the Silver Surfer and said something along the lines of “Who is this guy?” because again, he had only given Kirby a broad generalization for the story arc. It was all Kirby, even though later Lee would claim to have had some input into it.

Never believe any of the stories from Lee about what happened behind the scenes at Marvel. He love to take all the credit.

Omar Karindu, with the power of SUPER-hypocrisy!

August 27, 2009 at 9:48 am

As always needs pointing out to the Kirby and Ditko partisans, it seems, Stan Lee was not some sort of anti-creator demon operating in a vacuum.

In the days when Mort Weisinger or Jack Schiff flat-out didn’t let you have any creative influence or credit, when a 30-year-old contract meant that anyone drawing a Batman comic was paid peanuts and signed as “Bob Kane,” and when no kid knew the goddamn names of Curt Swan or Dick Sprang, Stan Lee was making sure everyone knew Kirby was King.

Marvel under Lee was the company crediting artists, inkers, letterers, eventually even colorists in a day when a writer or penciller anywhere else had to fight to get any mention at all. Ditko may have had to fight for it, but Lee ended up giving him plotting credit on Spider-Man; anywhere else Ditko would’ve been fired outright and damn the consequences.

So next time anyone wants to start up the drumbeat for “Stan Lee, Antichrist of the Silver Age,” first they can answer the following: Where was the better deal for creators of the time? Where in the industry was the steady job and the creators’ rights and the proper credit?

Taken in context, Lee was light-years ahead of his contemporaries. Bitch about the practices of every publisher of the era, or praise Lee with an eye to the real conditions of the time, but this cherry-picking bullshit where only Marvel’s sins are ever mentioned does a disservice to everyone.

And that’s really the issue here — you don’t see the Curt Swan Defense League show up every time someone mentions Silver Age Superman, and Alan Moore doesn’t do a borderline-libelous Mort Weisnger impression on the letters pages of his DC nostalgia projects. But damn, mention Stan Lee anywhere and suddenly everyone’s got ahistorical, half-baked condemnations ready to type and set to print.

Kirby abnd Ditko made noise about their treatement, in part because Lee’s promotion gave them the name recognition to have their complaints heard. But Bill Finger or Jerry Seigel? It took a lot more for anyone to notice how badly they’d been screwed, and even today most fans would much rather smack around Lee than address the outright theft of ideas and entire lifetimes of work from other creators at every other goddamn publisher on the planet prior to the 1980s.

But you read Ditko’s Spider-Man and it IS Ditko…it isn’t Stan Lee.

You read Kirby’s Fantastic Four and it is him re-imagining his own Challenger’s of the Unknown.

You read the Avengers and it really is Roy Thomas before he started getting proper credit.

The only thing Lee was light years ahead of the others was in mandating continuity and delegating to the more talented people for actual content.

Damn, I forgot how much of a beating Ben takes before getting his hands on Doom. Also didn’t realize that THIS is the first instance where he utters the “too dumb to quit . . . to ugly to die” line, later made famous again when he fought the Champion in the Marvel Two-in-One annual.

Is it just me or is Ben Grimm in everyone’s favorite top five favorite heroes? I remember during Byrne’s FF run, the letters page ran a poll on which, if any member of the FF should be killed off. Can’t remember the full results, but I do remember the editor noting that Ben had received exactly ZERO votes.

Omar Karindu, with the power of SUPER-hypocrisy!

August 27, 2009 at 10:25 am

You read Kirby’s Fantastic Four and it is him re-imagining his own Challenger’s of the Unknown.

No, it really isn’t. I assume you either have never seen or conspiratorially discount the widely-circulated Lee plot treatment for the first few FF issues, wherein the differences from Kirby’s Challs at DC are readily apparent.

And again, you go after Lee…but say nothing about just why Kirby stopped doing the Challs and moved over to Marvel.

More cherry-picking of exactly the sort I was addressing.

But you read Ditko’s Spider-Man and it IS Ditko…it isn’t Stan Lee.

Steve Ditko has, however, repeatedly made clear that the characterization and premise already developed in Amazing Fantasy #15 were there before he got there; Evanier and Joe Simon have likewise provided ample evidence that Kirby didn’t create the more revolutionary elements of the character.

Stan Lee is, even by the guys you’re claiming he screwed over, generally accounted the creator of the most notable elements of the Spider-Man concept and character.

And again,,,care to name any other company, property, or anything of the era where an artist’s plotting contribution was credited as openly as was Ditko’s? When Carmine Infantino was drawing the covers frm which plots were generated, he wasn’t getting writing or concept credit in the comic.

Seriously, put away the grievance with Lee and look at the industry AS A WHOLE in the 1960s. Lee was indeed well ahead of others in analogous positions.

No one was a good guy in terms of creators’ rights, no one. But it’s undeniable that Lee takes special heat for the reason that, perversely, he made the creators he employed visible and famous enough that their grievances and creators’-rights issues were noted where those of others were ignored.

Compare the length of time it’s taken for Bob Kane’s practically criminal dealings to become common fan knowledge with the relative speed with which Kirby and Ditko were able to become emblems of that issue. Are you really going to try and tell me that Lee was as bad as Kane, as Weisinger, as…hell, anyone else in his period to whom you might compare him?

THAT is what I am trying to discuss. And when your responses contain the names of people who aren’t working at Marvel in the 1960s, you, too, will be in the same conversation with me.

You read the Avengers and it really is Roy Thomas before he started getting proper credit.

What in blue Hell are you talking about with this one? Where, exactly, did Lee take credit from Roy Thomas’s Avengers?

Wonderful sequence, particularly the magnificent, vivid use of color in the too dumb/ugly panel. I like how Kirby draws Ben even more mishappen and monstrous than usual to underscore the tragedy of Ben’s loss of humanity yet again.

Anyone else find it curious and not a little fascinating that Doom has qualms about outright killing Ben at one point?

Also, who was the genius behind Marvel vs. Capcom 2 that remembered the ‘intensified molecules’ bit to create Doom’s “Molecular Shield” attack/defense, one of the most powerful weapons in the game? Damn, now that’s a way to do your research. I mean, when a quarter fed arcade game gets a character right better than a feature film??? Wow.

Its very telling how writers have gone back to this particular well for inspiration- Peter David used Doom’s miniaturized sensitizer on the Hulk (with much better results), Walt Simonson’s whole electrifying Doom arc was basically Doom wanting payback for this specific moment (and he even re-used calling Ben an ‘avatism’)… Any one think of any other instances?

What a great fight. And before this, I don’t recall Doom actually trading punches with the FF like this.

“But with Stan Lee you DON’T get the Silver Surfer.”

Nope, actually you do.

Lee has never claimed that he wrote the Silver Surfer into the Galactus trilogy. Quite to the contrary, he loves to tell the story of saying “Who’s this guy?” when he saw Kirby’s pages the first time. But all the nobility, the martyrdom and the grandeur — in short, everything outside of the basic character design that made the Surfer popular — came straight from Lee. To complete the analogy, the Black Racer hasn’t had too many titles of his own since his creation, and I can’t think of one movie that was made about him. There has to be a reason for that.

I’m not trying to take anything away from Kirby. There was a reason he was called the King. I just don’t think Lee should be so callously dismissed.

Personally I think the moment is “You’ve shattered his ego Ben! He may never gain enough confidence to attack us again!”

That’s a What If story right there…

I agree 1 million percent with Omar. And that’s a lot of percent, folks.

“No, it really isn’t. I assume you either have never seen or conspiratorially discount the widely-circulated Lee plot treatment for the first few FF issues”

I would love to read this. Is this available online?

All I know is that when Kirby wrote books by himself, they usually sucked. (Even though they usually contained some good ideas.)

Oh, and even after saying all that I did, it’s really not that I’m that much of a Stan Lee fan. Actually, I feel a lot of hostility for him.

It all goes back to that time when I was eliminated from a grade school spelling bee for nothing more than proudly walking up to the microphone and spelling out the word I was given as…T-H-R-U.

The laughter and jeers I received have followed me to this day, to the point that I am now reduced to lurking in comic book sites on the web.

Damn you, “The Man,” that trophy should have been mine.

Bravo Omar. You always see this accusations crop up whenever Kirby’s Marvel work is mentioned. Then why is it that you never hear the same accusations from Gene Colan working with him on Daredevil or JR sr when Ditko left Spider-Man? Much is made of the fact that Jack Kirby bolted from Marvel to DC but few like to mention that he found out that the grass wasn’t greener over there either.

Stan didn’t own Marvel. He didn’t have the power to change the business. Evanier even mentions that Kirby had a bigger concern with Goodman not living up to the promises he had made to him. Gene Colan recently gave an interview where he said that even when he did have a contract it was a joke. He remained a freelancer for most of his career.

But back to the subject at hand. Brian, I love this choice. It was one of the first FF comics I ever read, got it in trade from the boy next door to us. I forgot what he gave him :-) My brother still has it stored in his basement. The panel work by Kirby is great and few artists could choreograph a fight like him. And please….. let’s also stop the cliche where one must knock Vince Colletta’s work. His work with Kirby on Thor was much praised back in the day.

I think this started my long time pecadillo of following the “career” of Victor Von Doom. The Thing humiliated him so badly I actually felt sorry for the guy! Doom has never gotten over it, as we saw in Simonson’s FF#350. I know it’s not popular to praise Jeph Loeb these days but I recall he told a follow up “The Rest of the Story” to this with Ed McGuinness in the “Stan Lee Meets Doctor Doom” one shot a couple of years back. It showed Doom back in his castle brooding about his injuries and how he wasn’t able to play the piano. Old Boris tries to talk him out of his quest to destroy the FF “and their ilk” and just to be content to rule Latveria and that it was not worth his efforts to to tangle with the heroes. Instead, Boris’s suggestion has the opposite effect and renews Doom’s resolve. When Doom leaves, it turns out Boris was really Stan in disguise, sighing in relief “whew…the world’s greatest villain and for a second there I thought he was really going to quit.” That would be so like Stan. I think one thing both Stan and Jack shared was that they were really quite fond of the lethal Latverian.

A note about the Stan Lee plot treatment…. It was printed in FF #358 IIRC.

I’ve always loved that “too dumb to collapse/too ugly to die” panel. There’s your perfect marriage of words and pictures (although strangely I think it’s stronger in black and white in the Essential collections).

Speaking of words and pictures, I understand that Jack Kirby really unfairly got the shaft for a number of years, and it shouldn’t have happened, and it is a DAMN SHAME, but I’ve always felt the “Kirby was everything, Lee was nothing” attitude to be gross overcompensation for a past injustice.

In 2009, is there anyone with even the most basic knowledge of comics history writing that Jack Kirby was just some guy Stan Lee found to fill in the white spaces around his word balloons?

I’ve said it and I’ll say it again: My favorite Stan Lee written runs are his run with John Romita on Spider-Man and his John Buscema penciled Silver Surfer. Neither Lee nor Ditko were involved on those.

By the way, the aforementioned Silver Surfer series is probably the most famous classic Marvel run outside the US. In France they even had to create a few stories on that vein when the original stuff ran out…

So, yeah, Lee DID write a lot of good stuff by himself, thank you very much.

Best,
Hunter (Pedro Bouça)

I sort of glossed over the back matter, but I could swear there was something like Stan’s plot treatment in the softcover printing of Marvel Masterworks FF Volume 1. Let me go look that up.

LouReedRichards

August 27, 2009 at 11:36 am

I used to be in the Kirby partisan camp, but life’s just too short to go around and getting pissed off every time someone brings up Stan Lee.

Kirby WAS treated unjustly, but as Omar points out, that was pretty much standard practice industry wide.

It may not be an even split as far as the creating credit goes. I’m willing to give the vast majority of credit to Kirby for creating almost all of the characters in his book. But it is important to note that Lee gave them a voice that was very distinctive and completely separate from what Kirby would have gone with. The Comics Journal had a great article about the differences in Lee and Kirby’s vision of what comics should be. I think that was around ’95 -’96 ish IIRC.

So like it or not, without Lee OR Kirby there is no Marvel, period… at all.

I’m sure if I went back and read all of those “Origns of Marvel Comics” from the 70′s I’d get angry all over again.
But I feel much more sympathy for him now that people are more aware of his co-creators and don’t simply fawn over Stan Lee as the single creator of the Marvel Universe.

As much as I love Kirby, I don’t think he ever would have been able to pull of the showman/huckster persona that Lee did. Like it or not, his charisma really helped Marvel become the semi-household name that it is today.

That said, my main gripe with Lee is how much he overwrites his stories. I love Silver-Age Marvel, but damn some stories are almost unbearably wordy and redundant. Never say with 3 words when you can use 15 words instead seemed to be his motto.

There’s a plot synopsis for issue #1 in that new-ish Masterworks I was talking about. It’s a xeroxed copy of Stan’s, apparently.

“In 2009, is there anyone with even the most basic knowledge of comics history writing that Jack Kirby was just some guy Stan Lee found to fill in the white spaces around his word balloons?”

When I was still modding CBR’s Marvel board, there was at least one guy who would make that argument, yeah. But that was 2005. I hope he’s wised up, but I doubt it.

The Lee/Kirby debate just reminds me of John vs. Paul – you need both; each was good to great alone, together they were magic.

I think “the” moment is Ben’s too dumb or ugly panel. Summed up everything that makes The Thing special.

Of course, I think Ben should have beaten the crap out of Reed for sitting this one out.

Oh man, you left out my FAVORITE panel in this sequence… right after the page where Ben transforms, he rushes at Doom yelling, “You! It’s because of you that I’m the Thing again!! You’re gonna pay for that, do ya hear?? I’m gonna demolish you!!”

Kirby’s awesome pencils and Stan’s dialogue… you just feel the rage boiling in Ben as he’s about to knock Doom’s head off. The panels showing Ben transform are great, as well him dismantling Doom are as well… but the scene of Ben rushing Doom after transforming is my Cool Comic Book Moment.

Well said Omar.

I think the John and Paul analogy is good too, as they were never as good without each other either. I think Lennon’s solo stuff is ridiculously overrated, but the Beatles just had a magic together. Stan and Jack had something magic too.

Kirby and Ditko were both great, but if you look at what they did without Lee… not so great. Sure, Kirby’s post-Lee stuff is cool and full of great ideas, and the art is of course excellent, but it’s no FF. And as for Ditko’s post-Lee stuff, the less said the better. Spider-Man continued to be good after Ditko left, though perhaps not as good or at least quite different. And Stan’s Silver Surfer stuff was good too.

I will agree, though, that the writing was a bit hackneyed and cheesey, but that was the style, and Stan was a major part of building something amazing (as were the rest of the Bullpen, including Romita, Buscema and all the others).

I don’t think anyone can argue that Kirby doesn’t get fair dues nowadays. The guy’s worshipped like a god, and rightfully so (I prefer Moebius).

Classic scene. Kirby and Stan Lee at its best.

“I’m sure if I went back and read all of those ‘Origins of Marvel Comics’ from the 70′s I’d get angry all over again.”

You shouldn’t.

I admit I’m working from memory here since I don’t have those books anymore but I read them enough times to practically have them memorized. Lee gave credit to a lot of his collaborators in them. It was there that I first heard of the “Marvel Method” and how it worked. It was in there that he went to Kirby first with the Spider-Man idea but since everyone Kirby drew looked larger than life, he turned to Ditko because he wanted a scrawny every man look to the concept. Not to say that he downplayed his own contributions, but in those “Origins” books he passed along a lot of praise for the people with whom he worked.

As best as I can remember, and I’m sure somebody here will correct me if I’m wrong, the main dispute Kirby had with Marvel back in the Eighties was more about the return of his original artwork, and not so much about credit. That stuff was worth a fortune and would’ve helped him and Roz out a lot during their retirement. And in my opinion, he deserved to have it back. That’s as far as I’m going to go into the business side of things, especially since Omar has pretty much said everything that I would say about it anyway. I’m speaking more to Stan Lee’s talent. He wasn’t some hack who just came in later and cluttered up some pretty pictures with word balloons. Kirby, Ditko, Buscema, Heck and a lot of others did a lot of awesome work, but Lee made it sing.

Gavin, Omar Karindu et al, I’ve really enjoyed the debate you guys had in this thread, and I’m interested in reading more about it. It’s far from the first time I’ve encountered it, but this was one of the most detailed accounts of the situation I’ve read yet.

Is there another discussion thread, blog or website where I can read more about this in-depth?

Thanks.

i would agree with that as the moment not to mention the look on dooms face when the thing keeps coming and coming and that was one o f the coolest things of the fantastic four cartoon also

As someone who’s also been through the whole let’s-overreact-to-the-raw-deal-Kirby-got-by-saying-Stan-did-nothing phase and then gotten over it, I also rolled my eyes, snorted, and made the wanking gesture at seeing yet another “Stan did NOTHING!” kneejerk statement at the beginning of these comments at the mere suggestion that he might have had something to do with the content of a Lee-Kirby FF comic.

Also: Yay, obligatory reflexive Colletta hate only two comments in. Yawn, wankity-wankity, etc.

Omar Karindu, with the power of SUPER-hypocrisy!

August 27, 2009 at 4:19 pm

I had entered a comment saying that LouReedRichards and Justin Zyduck had perfectly expressed a rational, balanced take on Stan Lee, but it seems to have lost its way. Which is all quite fortunate, since I can also add Jack Norris, Ken S., and Mike to that list of astute commenters.

I think the sense of Kirby’s “raw deal” was more of a Kirby versus Marvel than Kirby versus Lee affair. Moreover, much of this “done wrong by” business occurred some time after the the Lee/Kirby parting.

The worst happened when Kirby, a pioneer of creator’s rights, was made to sign an extra-long, and so extra binding, contract with Marvel when it came to returning original artwork in the 80′s. This was the biggest, and by no means imaginary, sin against Kirby. This happened under Jim Shooter, though was also not entirely at the behest of this editor-in-chief, but more so at the insistence of the greater powers that were at the time.

Kirby, did have a beef with Lee; however. How much was justified, and how much was simply the perception of injury by Kirby himself, is hard to demonstrate.

Most think the split came after the the famous Village Voice article, in which Lee’s genius was ostensibly played up (I haven’t read it), while Kirby appeared to be but the sidekick. Doubtless Kirby’s feelings were hurt. Kirby’s visuals were after all responsible for a revolution in comic book storytelling, and set the media boldly off in new directions. Clearly Kirby contributed volumes to the plotting of the Silver Age. It is understandable he wanted to get out from under the “tent of Lee”, and have greater control over the exercise of his own prodigous imagination.

The Lee/Kirby “duel” and the Lee/Ditko “duel” were different animals. They had much in common, but also involved differences as clear as those very differences between the Kirby and Ditko personalities.

As far as “who created Spider-Man” debate goes. That one is too long for here. But I very much disagree that Lee was the primary in that one. He was vital, but many hands were involved including Kirby’s and Simon’s. But it was Steve Ditko who defined the character and plotting of the mythos more than anyone else. Things would change again under the subsequent Romita/Lee pairing, but Ditko’s notion of who the Amazing Spder-Man was is the formative one, and abides to this day.

Lee and Kirby were massive talents. We ought not discount one over the other.

Sorry, didn’t mean to go anonymously for the above comment. But this gives me a chance to say, I think “he moment” in the sequence above comes when the proud and ultra arrogant Doom is seen slinking away from defeat in the final page. Who would have thought it?!

This scene is the moment when the Kirby/Lee FF run moves from “good” to “amazing”–and doesn’t stop being “amazing” for years to come.

From the “pot calls kettle black” dept.:

Does Dr. Doom (or Stan Lee) know what “misanthrope” means? While Ben is out mingling with and saving humanity, Doom is sitting alone in his castle, brooding and plotting. Hello?

Also, the guy who keeps his face hidden behind a mask has a lot of nerve calling anyone else “ugly one.” Ben should’ve retorted something like, “Look who’s talking…the guy who packs his mug in a sardine can!”

Rob… I was thinking the same thing as you regarding the use of “misanthrope”. The Thing maybe bitter and angry at times, but he is above all a humanist in the widest sense of the word. Doom… is the one more likely to subscribe to the “bah, puny humans” philosophy.

That misuse of the term “misanthrope” I think became almost a Marvel standard for years after that , well into the seventies.
I remember looking the word up in the dictionary after seeing it used repeatedly by various Marvel villains in lines such as “You misanthropic morons!” and thinking “well, that just doesn’t make sense.”

You could make the argument that in Doom’s case, he is projecting the term “misanthrope” from himself onto to Ben. He just assumes that Ben’s going to have the same hang-ups at the loss of his looks.

Basically Omar’s right, but a hell of a lot of early Fantastic Four WAS recycled Challengers of the Unknown.

In issue # 3… I think it was Rocky gets shot into space, gets zapped, and comes back with super-powers including invisibility and energy throwing.

Obviously Stan wrote a plot for Kirby to follow. But he almost cetainly talked the plot through with Kirby before-hand.

Which doesn’t mean that the the origin sequence for the FF was all Kirby’s idea. But it sure’shell wasn’t all Stan’s, neither.

I just read the pages and am skipping the ensuing arguments. Just like with FF #1 a couple of weeks back, I am again reminded why Ben is the only character I ever cared for in this book. I had a lot of friends in school like Reed: They didn’t participate whenever I was engaged in a brawl because they knew I could handle it on my own, so they always “almost” stepped in. (They’re all working in science or technolology nowadays. LOL.)

Reed and Sue come across like jerks once again. Sue’s concern for Ben over anything always seemed phony and contrived. And just when you thought that Johnny had begun to mature, he married “Alicia” after she had been at Ben’s side for years. You call this a family? I need better “moments” here, guys! Seeing the Thing beat the odds is cool, yeah. But I can’t help but think that the other members never care enough for him.

Heck, Doom gets more points here for that panel where he tells Ben that he didn’t want to kill him.

Uncle Joe Mccarthy

August 28, 2009 at 1:46 am

i cant believe the whole kirby vs lee debate is still going on.

when kirby left marvel for dc, the man created the entire 4th world universe and reinvigorated the jimmy olsen line…he also created kamandi, the demon, revisualised the sandman and did a ton of other work….all of which dc continues to recycle till today

what did lee create after kirby and ditko left the fold?

lee was/is a brilliant promoter…no one sells comics better than that man…mostly by selling his own image and mythology….but whatever works

Uncle Joe Mccarthy

August 28, 2009 at 1:47 am

oh…and happy bday jack

you will live forever

And that’s why The Thing’s the only character on the FF I care much about. But Doom and Ben sure are a chatty pair, aren’t they?
Um, did they just letthe good doctor walk back home for a new suit? Whom should I blame for that: Lee or Kirby?

So, with Stan Lee you get Tomazooma the Living Titan, without him you get Darkseid?

This makes as much sense as the Surfer/Black Racer comparison.
The Surfer was a sudden inspired bit of raw genius, the kind of singular brilliance that even a good artist is lucky to ever produce. And he was a pure Kirby creation, a sci-fi/surfin’ USA/angel that came as a delightful shock to Stan Lee.

I give Stan Lee full marks for his huge contribution to Marvel’s success. I just don’t see him as it’s main creator, a title he has always seemed quite happy to accept. Did he ever create ANYTHING memorable without Kirby or Ditko??

And, the moment? It’s Doom’s helpless pose of abject submission, as Reed tells Ben to stop.
“Well, well, if it ain’t Stretcho, just when I don’t need ya!” One of the finest Ben Grimm moments ever.

*Sigh* The debate is not still “going on” in the sense that people actually still believe that Stan made up everything and Jack just drew the pictures, or that all of Stan’s self-hype was true.
It’s just that over the years, some feel that there’s been a bit of overcompensation, and that saying that Stan’s contribution was absolutely zero is taking things too far in the other direction.
Also, people who jump in with comments about “hey, did you know Kirby did way more than Stan credited him with, and that Stan took more credit than he was due” and similar ancient, widely-known facts by this point in time are insulting the others in the conversation by accusing them of ignorance and making themselves look like self-righteous tools.

Stan’s contribution was well below 50%, certainly, by most everyone’s measure, but that portion he did add made for a certain magic in combination with artists like Kirby and Ditko. Adding in the dialogue that he did alone gives the work a spark it wouldn’t have otherwise, if the dialogue I’ve seen when they did all their writing alone is anything to go by.
I’m as sick of the “whining martyr” characterization of the Silver Surfer as the next guy, but it did strike a certain chord with people at the right time, and that aspect does seem to be Stan’s one contribution to the character.
All through their work together, Stan’s seemingly minor character shadings and turns of phrase pushed Jack’s already great work into classic territory, and it was the fact that Kirby never really found a partner who could put quite the same sparkling final polish onto his characters with the dialogue in his later work that keeps the Fourth World and the Eternals on the level of “merely” great, just below the “beloved classic” status of the Lee/Kirby FF.
And I certainly don’t regret never reading “Spider-Man, Objectivist Bore.”

This moment reminds me of another one (that I relly hope will get featured) involving the Incredible hulk vs the U-Foes during Peter Davids run.

This has been a great discussion thread on a cool moment, so I’m almost sorry to lower the tone by pointing out that with all the punishment they cop. The thing’s shorts don’t so much as show a tear. Kind of makes you wonder how it would have been drawn if the Thing was a woman. I dare What If to tackle that one, and before someone else says it, lets get the ‘What a pair of rocks line out of the way :)

There was a female Thing (Sharon Ventura) who was a member of the team for a few years beginning in 1988. I can’t recall her clothing ever being torn, aside from the original transformation in #310 and #311, and everything was still covered well then.

Well I’ll be dammed and here I thought I was just being silly. Thanks for that little snippet Mary

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