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CBR Live! Archive

Friday among the Cultists

Here's another parlor game for you. This one kind of grew out of an idea some friends were kicking around on the CBR forums.

The question put to the floor was, what makes something a "cult" hit, as opposed to being just a clear success or failure?

We were primarily talking about movies, but I thought it was an interesting exercise to apply the idea to comics, as well.

Of course, if you apply the term as it's commonly used to describe movies or television, well, all comic books are "cult" comics. Especially superhero comics -- it's a narrow genre, there aren't that many people who read them, and the ones who do read them tend to be really devoted and knowledgeable. As far as the layman is concerned, technically DC and Marvel's entire output is to a cult audience.

So we have to refine the definition a little bit. Here's what I came up with as characteristics of what I'd consider to be a "cult" comic book series.

In its initial appearance, the series was a short-run commercial failure. Whatever time limit you choose is arbitrary, but for our purposes let's say that to be considered a 'cult' series, whatever its original incarnation might have been, it didn't sell in big numbers and ran two years or less.

Let me walk you through a test case. Take Archie Goodwin and Walt Simonson's Manhunter.

Yes, I picked my favorite. Why not?

It started as a revival of a Golden-Age B-lister, an obscure little feature from Joe Simon and Jack Kirby that ran in Adventure Comics during the 1940s.

cult

The '40s Adventure Comics version would be called a moderate success, I guess, though the Simon and Kirby Manhunter was never a major player. The feature ran as a backup from #58 to #92 or so, as nearly as I can figure, usually running 8 or 9 pages per issue. But the Goodwin/Simonson revival turned into something else entirely.

Though, as I said, it was not a huge success initially. The revived-and-reimagined Manhunter started as a backup feature in Detective #437, and ended in #443. Six backup 8-page stories and one lead feature (shared with Batman) that clocked in at 20 pages.

This is still ana amzing story, even today.

By any standard measure it was a commercial failure. Didn't really bump the Detective sales numbers up, didn't get great word of mouth on the book... pretty much was a blip in the history of the title.

But it was admired by people in the business. I think that has to be the second criterion -- a "cult" series should be, despite its commercial failure, a word-of-mouth hit among fellow professionals. Manhunter reputedly blew away every freelancer that saw it in the DC offices at the time. Its writer, Archie Goodwin, was routinely named as "the best writer in comics" by his peers and three of the strip's seven installments won Shazam Awards, as well as a couple more being bestowed on Archie Goodwin for overall Best Writer as well as naming Walt Simonson as Best New Talent in 1973 and 1974. Those were peer awards, voted on by working comics writers and artists -- the membership of the Academy of Comic Book Arts. They're not fan awards.

What else? Well, a "cult" series should be continually discovered by generations of new readers. It doesn't die off.

Manhunter got canceled after seven installments. But it was such a legend that it was collected in trade paperback just four years later, in 1979, which was really unprecedented back then.

I already own a collected edition of Manhunter but I still lust after this book.

It was collected again in the 80's.

When this came out I promptly bought it and gave it to a friend, bought it and gave it to another friend... I had to replace about five of them all told.

And again in 1999, this time with some added material.

My current copy.

And I believe that 1999 edition is still available. The book's still not a hit, not doing big numbers or anything -- but it's there, enough of a perennial that it's worth it to DC to keep it in print.

What else? Well, it should be influential. I think Manhunter certainly qualifies there. Pop quiz -- how many other superhero comics have done espionage, ninjas or clones since 1974?

Not for a minute implying anyone STOLE anything.... but Manhunter broke this ground. Everything Miller did on Daredevil was done earlier in Manhunter.

Yeah, exactly. I don't for a minute imply that the works that came after were stealing from Manhunter, but I'm talking influences here.

And finally... in comics, a "cult" success means people keep trying to recapture the magic. And usually failing.

No one has been able to duplicate whatever it was that made the Goodwin-Simonson Manhunter work. But that doesn't stop them from trying.

Worst revival was also the first.

But it takes more than just bringing the character back.

Seriously, this was just embarrassing for all concerned.

Or riffing on his name and costume.

I liked this one quite a bit, but it wasn't a patch on the original. Almost unreadable.

Even a version done as a straight-up homage with the blessing and permission of Walt Simonson fell flat.

I was rooting for this version, truly. But as much as I loved the homage... still fell kinda flat.

What's interesting is that Manhunter's most successful incarnation to date is a revival that goes nowhere near the Goodwin and Simonson character.

This one gets CALLED a cult hit, but it's the most successful version DC's ever done.

Kate Spencer's Manhunter has nothing to do with Paul Kirk's -- not even as a 'legacy' character, unlike DC's other tries. I think that as a result of that decision to make a clean break, it is the most successful version of "Manhunter" that DC Comics has ever done -- because it goes off and does its own thing. If you include Birds of Prey then I think Kate Spencer almost has more pages recounting her adventures than all the other iterations combined. (Kate's book ran 38 issues. Her closest runner-up, Mark Shaw, only got 24... Chase Lawler got 14. And Paul Kirk never even got to headline -- he was in seven issues of Detective and his clones were in a couple of different team books, Secret Society of Super-Villains and Power Company.) At this point I think Kate Spencer's page count even eclipses the original Golden Age Manhunter's, the Simon and Kirby version.

And yet that's the one that's usually referred to as having a "rabid cult following," or being a "successful failure," or all the other things one usually ascribes to things that are "cult" hits. Go figure.

*

I picked Manhunter because it's a favorite of mine and I already knew most of the stats, but you can play this game with any number of other short-lived-but-beloved comics series.

For example, just pulling one out of a hat, I think DC's Prez might well be a candidate for "cult" status.

A dumb book that nevertheless no one wants to let go of.

Objectively, the book was a dismal failure, canceled after four issues. And the issues that were published were not really very good.

Goofy fun? Sure. Good? Not hardly.

But for some reason, almost forty years later, the title has a certain cachet among comics historians. People still know the book and talk about it. It gets blogged about quite a bit.

And professionals keep going back to that well. Neil Gaiman did it in Sandman...

Truthfully I think it was the Sandman appearance that gave the property the push into cult status.

...and here it is again in a revival special from Vertigo, this time from Ed Brubaker and Eric Shanower.

Of all the characters to get a Vertigo makeover... Prez? REALLY?

There's something there in the original that people are still latching on to. I don't know that the series meets ALL the criteria I laid out above (Is Prez influential? Doubtful.) But I think it hits most of those marks.

One more example. This one I think is inarguable. Wally Wood's witzend.

A legendary undertaking.

This started as a self-published anthology project from Wally Wood and several of his studio friends, and served as the launching pad for all kinds of stuff. It's occasionally cited as the first of the underground comics, though I think it has much more in common with "ground-level" stuff like Star*Reach. In particular, Wood's Wizard King is remembered as being a groundbreaking piece of fantasy comics work.

A lovely reprint edition from Vanguard. Spendy but worth it.

Again, it doesn't meet ALL the criteria -- but it hits a lot of them. In particular, witzend was an influence on a lot of people. Ralph Bakshi's Wizards is very nearly an uncredited adaptation of Wood's Wizard King.

Did Bakshi STEAL all this? Almost.

(Some say it's outright theft of Wood's work but I wouldn't go quite that far.)

The main point I wanted to make is that there's a difference between "cult status" and "fondly-remembered flop." For example, I think Chase was a cult series.

Damn I miss this book.

But Prowler, as much as I adored it, was just a failure.

This book just CRATERED when it came out... but it was AWESOME.

I could go on. But I think you all get the idea... so let's hear your picks. What are your nominations for the series that were...

...initially commercial flops...
...but beloved by professionals...
...continually re-discovered by new readers...
...can be shown as a clear influence on other work...
...and occasionally revived, but without success?

Talk amongst yourselves. Enjoy. And I'll see you next week.

  • Posted on October 16, 2009 @ 10:14 AM

38 Comments

I loved Night Force, though I'm not sure it meets all your criteria.

I think one of the reasons Prez remains high in people's minds is because Neil Gaiman was the author to revive him. Would he be so well-known if it had been an anonymous scripter?

And in TV, I'm waiting for the revival of Space:1999. No, really. You can even change the date. (BTW, does Night Stalker count as a cult?)

always love the friday column

Cheers,

B

I'd go with Moore/Davis/Delano's Captain Britain run.

The Jasper's Warp storyline in particular had the benefit of two up and coming talents, and a lack of availability initially in the US. It wasn't profitable to do in its original niche market, but was able to spawn Claremont/Davis' Excalibur. That exposure to the US market created increased interest in the hard to find Moore storyline, which was then reprinted in a 1990's run, as well as TPB.

The franchise then of course had enough interest to support several relaunches in various formats and miniseries. All of which were commercial failures, and most of which weren't terribly good. Which of course leads to Captain Britain and MI13...which was really good but financially unsuccessful and can perhaps start the 'cult' cycle around once again.

I think another criteria that could be added is if the comic was an early project by a now well-known creator, who wass not well known at the time. I think that has helped with Manhunter's cult status, since I don't think anyone knew who this Walt Simonson person was at the time.

Based on that, I propose Cosmic Odyssey as a cult comic. Early Mignola work, parts of it at least have been frequently referenced since then (especially John Stewart indirectly causing an entire planet to be destroyed). I don't think it did very well initially. I don't know if it's being re-discovered by new readers, or if many people other than myself are fans of it. But it seems to hit several of the criteria.

Would Moon Knight fit the mold? His initial failure wasn't that colossal, but he seems to get his series canceled and restarted an awful lot. I don't know that specific professionals love the character, but Marvel the corporate entity seems to like trotting the character out every few years, which allows new readers to check out "Marvel's Batman". Wasn't the Shroud basically a Moon Knight clone, back in the day?

I dunno, I'm probably fudging this one too much. He's probably too popular, despite his inconsistent commercial success, to be considered "cult" under your parameters.

How about the DOOM PATROL?

Isn't Grant Morrison's version of DP considered the best version? Pollack's version never achieved the same level of attention of Morrison's version.

Acudi's version was better, but still didn't last very long.
Not too sure about Giffen's version.

Can't remember how long the original version lasted though.

Would DP fit the cult criteria?

I like Brian's suggestion of Night Force. I really liked that one, although I only read the first four issues.
The first book to pop into my head as I read this was Omega the Unknown, which I've never read, but it always sounded like a cult series to me.

Neat topic. I've asked myself many times over the years about why probably my two favorite writers, Philip K. Dick & H.P. Lovecraft, are generally considered "cult" authors (though maybe that's not so applicable anymore, given the proliferation of movies based on each man's oeuvre over the last couple of decades), whereas, say, to my knowledge Theodore Sturgeon isn't. (Not that I can think, offhand, of as single movie based on anything Sturgeon wrote ... except for that, ummm, less-than-great TV movie of "Killdozer" back in the mid-'70s. Which certainly isn't to say that movies=elevation from the genre-fiction ghetto, but it often seems to work that way.)

And then there are "cult" bands, who probably account for the vast majority of my (obscenely massive) music collection ...

Omega the Unknown is probably a great example. It never caught on, but was critically acclaimed, and revisited recently (including a trade of the original material), bringing it to the attention of new readers. And the kind of themes and narrative structure it employed certainly influenced later work.

I'd think that Morrison's DP might qualify as having been too successful to qualify.

Also, Doom Patrol revivals haven't necessarily been about recapturing Morrison's DP. Some have been more about recapturing the original.

I'd nominate the Spectre, but I'm not sure he fits the "initially commercial flops" element. I honestly don't know how Spectre did in the 40s. I've read some of his All-Star Squadron appearances, and I didn't find them very good (but then, I have trouble appreciating most Golden Age books).

I fell in love with the Ostrander/Mandrake Spectre series, and it appears that most people who've read it did too. It drove me to go back and read the Moench series from the 80s, and some of the Aparo stuff from the 60s. The former, I found dull and dry. The latter was enjoyable in a "creepshow" manner, but it didn't have the emotional drama of the Ostrander stuff. The O/M series also led me to read the entire Hal Jordan Spectre series in the hope that some of the earlier magic would reappear, but it never did (the constantly-changing direction of the book should have been my first clue; Hal Jordan having a sex change should have been my second).

Still, I think the character, if not that particular series, fits most if not all of the rest of your criteria.

Chase was the example in my mind as I was reading the column... and then there she was!

I agree, Morrison's Doom Patrol was too well-known, too successful. A cult hit should have the feeling of being a shared secret while it's in its initial run.

I think something that's missing from the formula is "a small but loyal and VOCAL group of fans." I wouldn't think that's more important than the love of the creators. The idea that a publisher brings a character or concept back because this group of fans won't shut up about it.

Even though they were successful for a while in their original runs, I'm going to put The Defenders, Alpha Flight and Justice League International. The relaunches, miniseries and reunions with those characters and/or creators is very fan driven.

For the same reason, I wouldn't include Moon Knight or Runaways (although Runaways would probably fit in Greg's formula) The several relaunches both titles have had over the past few years have had much more to do with the publisher wanting to build an audience for the characters more than anything the fans want .

Ouch.

I wish I could play your game, Greg, but thinking about this stuff just makes me blindingly angry. All I think of is all the indie books I loved in the eighties and pre-Image nineties that today's creator's recycle from while the original talent got screwed and most aren't around the industry anymore.

I was going to respond with a long, thoughtful reply, but then I saw that Manhunter #0 cover and instead am filled with a desperate need to pluck my eyeballs out of my head and set them on fire. Whenever I see that sort of thing I just think, "That actually happened. That happened." Because it seems so impossible.

Anyway.

I want to mention that Prez #4, which you show a page from here, is one of the most amazing comic reading experiences I have ever had. It's almost indescribable. The fact that it gets mentioned and rediscovered by people even today is a testament to Joe Simon. I don't know where he came up with that stuff from, but man, I wish I could tap into it.

As for other cult series, hm. I would love to say Atari Force, but I'm not sure three fans counts as a cult. Ditto for Firearm. Those are two personal favorites of mine that have influenced me, but I'm not sure those feelings are widespread enough to call them cult hits. And I think Night Nurse might also qualify if enough people actually had a chance to read the stories.

Thinking about it more, I might nominate the original Deathlok series from Astonishing Tales. Also, Don McGregor and Paul Gulacy's original Sabre graphic novel could qualify.

I initially thought of star-lord as a possibility. I figure that most of the big two examples would be fringe characters that have a tendency to keep coming back (Rocket Raccoon as another, heck most of Marvel cosmic characters could probably qualify)

Actually, Prez was revived by John Ostrander (in Firestorm) several years before Gaiman touched him. Only it was done far too obliquely for hardly anyone to even notice...

To nominate the obvious, Marvelman/Miracleman never was a commercial success, was it?

Bruce Campbell has said that the difference between a cult movie and a successful movie is that one is seen by 10 million people once while the other is seen by 10 thousand people a hundred times.

With comics, i agree with Wesley Smith, that there has to be a small, vocal, & intensely loyal group of fans to meet the standard of saying that something is Cult. There also has to be something in the work that keeps people coming back to it over again that sparks a fondness for it.

So, while i really liked Xero [by Priest] i wouldn't call it cult, while Quantum & Woody [also by Priest] i would call cult.

i think that you could call the Secret Society of Super Villians would count as cult. The original series didn't do so well, but it still is brought into DC continuity and current stories. Also, maybe US 1?
DFTBA

Although beloved by discerning readers and professionals at the time, Howard the Duck's reputation was killed by the movie. A small but vocal minority of comic book fans kept the faith.

Guardians of the Galaxy, back in the '70s. A single issue of Marvel Superheroes (I think) by Arnold Drake & Gene Colon, a few issues in Marvel Presents, some nice work by Gerber but nothing ground-breaking. Eventually, Jim Valentino makes it a modest success, until it dies under other hands. Recently, it's revived featuring Rocket Racoon (another cult favorite).

Some '80s and '90s independents, including Journey, Beanworld, Flaming Carrot, & Zot!, were known by reputation more than substance. Now, trade paperbacks exist to let everyone read what they've heard about all these years.

Rom seems to be a favorite of bloggers. Growing up, I heard about Claremont & Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevils, Alan Moore's big works, Sandman, even some popular indies (e.g. American Flagg!), but no one talked about Rom. It was just another '80s Marvel book, like Power Man & Iron Fist or Cloak & Dagger, that got lost in the shuffle. After reading about people's love for the series & character, it seems like a cult hit to me (despite lasting more than 2 years) because I'd never even considered its merit, and never heard a more knowledgable fan tell me about it.

Helfer & Baker's Shadow has a great reputation, but is not in print. It qualifies as cult hit. Likewise O'Neil & Cowans's Question. I hope to buy some back issues or trades at some point.

Flex Mentallo... critically acclaimed, but due to legal issues, not nearly as widely read... this little series is one with a title that those I know who actually own the issues whisper with a proud reverence. I actually read the issues online (yes, I know...), and wasn't as impressed (compared with my love for other Morrison projects: Animal Men, Sea Guy, Doom Patrol and Seven Soldiers above all), still it remains a cult classic I think.

First, nice to you that you (and your wife, hopefully?) have by now recovered from whatever bug kept you from blogging last week, Greg!

As for the "cult hit" thing: I think you're overthinking things. Most people consider something a "cult hit" with only two of your descriptors: that it was a commercial failure when it first comes out but gains a (limited) following later. Other things (like professional approval or influence) are nice but not truly needed.

(No examples from me, as I really never cared to examine anything from the "cult" point of view. I just like them (or not) on their own.)

BTW, am I the only one who finds Simonson's Manhunter's costume ridiculous? The series itself WAS pretty cutting edge, but really, try sneaking in the dark with something like that on! (Not that Batman's costume is ENTIRELY practical either, mind you...)

Man, Prez is great. The Gaiman and Brubaker revivals? Godawful. Really bad. But those originals are brilliant, same for anything Joe SImon did in the 70s, like Green Team, or Brother Power. And I bet none of you can wait for the triumphant return of Prez Rickard, in the pages of my purely hypothetical Jimmy Olsen ongoing.

Scott Harris:

I'd include Atari Force as well, with one caveat.

IT started off as bonus comics for 5 video game cartridges, and a graphic novel - And, frankly, the actual series of "buy off the rack" comics, set 20 years later, was even better than the source material, and even made several of the trades of the time's top 10 series of the year (and didn't the backstory "Hukka vs. The BOB" win an award?).

It's a cult series, but one that actually succeeded and shined in its rebirth, more than its original iteration, before licensing issues relegated to probable permanent limbo.

Yeah, and Brian, I'd count Space: 1999 & Kolchak: The Night Stalker as TV iterations of the cult phenomena, more than most series one usually hears called "cult", that were actually just semi-successful series with loyal followings.

My first thought was "Bat Lash", although I'm not sure if it meets all your criteria.

I'd like to say "Star Hunters", but I'm not sure it counts, as I'm not sure it has the peer acceptance & I doubt it inspired any other series.

What about Jack Kirby's Fourth World stuff (Jimmy Olsen, Forever People, New Gods & Mr. Miracle)? They all got canceled early, but it certainly got revived & redone over & over.

How well did "Deadman" do in it's initial run?

For that matter, the Silver Age "Hawkman" seemed to be a series of short runs (B&B, Mystery In Space, Hawkman, The Atom & Hawkman) it seemed like the powers that be were trying anything to keep it going.

Regarding the Golden Age Manhunter series: the Simon and Kirby version doesn't begin until Adventure #73. The earlier stories by Ed Moore in #58-72, although they concern a big game hunter named Paul Kirk, are generally not considered part of the costumed hero's continuity. S&K originally named their version "Rick Nelson" but editorial changed it back to Paul Kirk for reasons I, at least, don't know (the Nelson name is actually used in one panel of Adventure #73).

bill --

>>anything Joe SImon did in the 70s, like Green Team, or Brother Power.

*ahem* Brother Power was from the *'60s* -- the 2 issues came out in July & Sept of '68, to be precise, & I remember them as vividly as I do anything from that year, during which prehistoric me started the 4th grade.

On the Classic Comics forum there's a running in-joke about my eternal quest for issue #3, because when it *choke* kept failing to show up in the local spinner racks, a comics-reading "friend" of mine assured me that he'd seen it while on a trip out of town with his parents. He just hadn't bothered to pick it up &/or didn't have the necessary 12 cents (which after all was a pretty formidable amount -- 24 percent of my weekly allowance at the time, in fact) ...

I've never been the same.

Another Atari Force fan here.

It doesn't meet all of the requirements (it hasn't been revived in any fashion that I know of, and I'm not certain just how many people are re-discovering it these days), but I would nominate Robert Fleming and Trevor Von Eeden's run of Thriller. Short-lived, but an excellent work that was ahead of it's time. Critically acclaimed, but a comercial failure, Thriller was a 'widescreen' comic book long before the term was invented, using virtually no captions or thought balloons in portraying the story of a sc-fi future told through pulp sensibilities.

I agree with a few of the commenters above, in that I think Omega the Unknown (especially), Rom and Omac fit the bill - all of them came to mind while I was reading Greg's post. Flex Mentallo occured to me as well, benday-lot, but I think rather than being a cult series it's more like a "Holy Grail," i.e. a hard to find work by an otherwise well-liked and popular writer (which says nothing about its overall quality - I managed to read it, too, and was quite underwhelmed...)
Perry, I definitely share your admiration of Thriller - if it's considered a cult classic, it should be. My own suggestion here would be "It Rhymes with Lust" by Arnold Drake and Matt Baker - I've never read it myself, but have seen it mentioned and effusively praised many, many times. It seems to be one of those titles that is often declared "the first graphic novel", even though it was apparently quite underappreciated when it first came out in the 1950s.

Underwhelmed by Flex Mentallo!?!?

You better believe that's a paddlin'.

Edo, yes, you are probably right in your assessment of Flex Mentallo. Any cult status it has is pretty much based on its protracted unavailability. If the legal issues were ever to be resolved and FM were to be reprinted with full distribution it would surely pass from from an exotic cult favour to simply another Morrison project that a complete congregation of fans will finally either bestow its shadowy fame a measure, or decide the whole thing after all wasn't worth it.

Looks like we already know which camp Bill falls in ...

FunkyGreenJerusalem

October 18, 2009 at 8:37 pm

Does Starman count as a cult hit?
It was below cancellation numbers for most of it's run, and only kept alive due to the amount of critical acclaim it had.

Killraven might be another - homage of War Of The Worlds that turns into Conan in the future, that mutates into Don Mcgregor & Craig Russell musings on the problems with society, and the heroes burden... a few revivals, but nothing close to the success of the original.

Booster Gold?
A short run in his debut series, then folded into JLI where a different take and a new best bud made him a fave, before slowly moving back to the back ground after the fad died down, until his key role in the experimental and unexpectedly popular 52 launched a new ongoing for him, which has just hit the same number as his original series.

At this point I think Kate Spencer's page count even eclipses the original Golden Age Manhunter's, the Simon and Kirby version.

It always sucks when a lesser take beats the better takes.

Especially when the lesser take only got so far because DC kept bringing the book back as a publicity stunt.
(Which I gives it standing as a cult figure I guess, but how many times does one character have to get cancceled? First her own series three times, then Birds Of Prey... maybe she'll connect as the back up story).

Also, Doom Patrol revivals haven't necessarily been about recapturing Morrison's DP. Some have been more about recapturing the original.

Which is kinda pointless as Arnold Drake preferred Morrison's run over those that just tried to capture his run on the title.

The Gaiman and Brubaker revivals? Godawful. Really bad.

You think that one issue of Sandman is godawful, but take someone to task for not liking Flex Mentallo?

I just don't get you.

I had no idea until this moment that that wondersully trippy Sandman issue was based on a previous comic.

Although its rather recent, I'd nominate Peter Milligan and Mike Allred's run on X-Force/X-Statix for consideration. I remember it being pretty unpopular at the time it was being published (which was somewhat understandable given that none of the characters had been in X-Force or even existed before the run started), but it played around with and deconstructed a lot of different tropes and ideas associated with the team book and it was definitely different than its contemporaries at the time.

philfromgermany

October 19, 2009 at 2:16 am

I doubt the last Manhunter title will achieve a cult status. But maybe it's just me because, much as liked the book and wanted to see the characters in it, the art was so freaking fugly I ended hating the whole thing. And I normally don't even care much about artwork in the comics I pull...
As for some of the series mentioned here: Chase is remembered fondly by many people, but what about it's unfortunate brother series: Chronos? Loved that one too. Or the Android Hourman series? To get that real cult thing going, you would need several vocal people and convince new people to feel the same way about it, which has not happened to all the books which deserve it. Which, come to think about it, is actually a nice thing, as it means there is still a lot of good books to discover by listening to your fellow collectors. :D

I would say that Vext and Heckler are pretty close to cult status. And Ambush Bug, which is never a big seller, but it is pretty much loved by all industry peers. Yeah, all Giffen...

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