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You crazy bastards.

You could've ended it on panels 4, 5, 6 or 7 and still gotten a big laugh from me.

But you went one further, and still got a laugh.

Of course, you did just knock countdown with a strip that references, at the top and tail, the strips own continuity... playing with fire!

That open-mouthed gape in response to Brian is pretty much the story of my life.

They didn't really novelize Countdown, did they?

...

DID THEY?

They did.

DID THEY?

It's almost like X-Men Forever isn't it?

The guys get points for making fun of it, because it's very existence is the greatest joke of all.

I am usually against novelizations of any comic, but I think Final Crisis is one book that may actually benefit from having its narrative techniques that are unique to comic book storytelling negated.

The fact that Final Crisis #7 would see print again in some form is reason enough not to novelize Final Crisis.

Bashing Countdown and Final Crisis Oh, that´s so last year...

The novel came out a year ago?

Keeeeeripes, I'm out of the loop.

Great installment! (This is getting redundant ...)

Hmmm... I like the strip a lot but this one didn't do it for me.

"I am usually against novelizations of any comic, but I think Final Crisis is one book that may actually benefit from having its narrative techniques that are unique to comic book storytelling negated."

That's why you're wrong.

In general.

I am usually against novelizations of any comic, but I think Final Crisis is one book that may actually benefit from having its narrative techniques that are unique to comic book storytelling negated.

And a novelisation of Fellini's 8 1/2 might flesh out the other characters a little, as they are little more than sketches of people but changing the medium would totally destroy the point.

The fact that Final Crisis #7 would see print again in some form is reason enough not to novelize Final Crisis.

The fault lies not in the work, but within you.

http://www.amazon.com/Countdown-Greg-Cox/dp/0441017185

it cannot be!

And a novelisation of Fellini's 8 1/2 might flesh out the other characters a little, as they are little more than sketches of people but changing the medium would totally destroy the point.

yes, i get that. but with 8 1/2 what you would lose in narrative experimentation would outweigh what you gained. it's response from critics and target audience was and remains almost universally positive. with final crisis, i think most people could live without what you'd lose by changing the medium, based on how mixed the responses were to it.

The fault lies not in the work, but within you.

Not sure if this is a joke or not. If not, well, you can ad-hom me till the cows come home, it won't change how horrible that comic book is. It misses 95% of its emotional marks ("Mandrak, guy who was introduced last issue, you are my father, but I must kill you! Audience, please care about my character arc! Oh and look, it's like old stories. Neat-O, right? ").

I should mention that I felt this way after rereading the previous six issues, which for the most part I enjoyed, twice around the time of their publication and in one big sweep before the conclusion. So, it wasn't as if I was primed to hate this comic. In fact, FC7 came as a huge disappointment for me, one big blue balls of an issue after the buildup of the previous six.

A couple more things before I let it drop. The dialogue in FC7 is cringe-worthy at times - "Don't fuck with the judge of all evil!" Ugh, that line is like a phantom pain I feel every time I think back on Final Crisis. There were other clunkers in there as well, but that particular one has haunted me since I last read the comic in February. I have a terrible memory when it comes to things like that too, so it's pretty telling that I can still recall the line verbatim.

While I feel that this is obvious, it should be said anyway that experimentalism is not a free pass for sucking. It is not necessarily the case that someone who dislikes an experimental work doesn't grasp the work or that he's in some way lacking in character or intelligence. I'm sure I've brought this up during the heated "No dude, you don't get it" debates of early 2009, but Vladimir Nabokov HATED the highly-experimental Finnegans Wake. Does that make him a philistine who wouldn't know literature if it bit him in the ass? It would be a hard case to make given that he wrote one of the most esteemed novels in English literature. I'm sure he "got" Finnegans Wake just fine, better than most even, but ultimately, it just fell flat for him (he calls the book "a persistent snore in the other room").

While I don't claim, by any stretch of the word, to be an expert on literature - I'm still young and not especially well-read for my age - a lot of the stuff I do like in English lit does have an experimental quality to it. For instance, I've enjoyed works by Virginia Woolf, James Joyce, though I've only ever read Portrait, and more recently, E.E. Cummings and Getrude Stein introduced to me in a poetry class. With Final Crisis 7, maybe I don't get it, but having read the issue several times, I felt as though if anybody asked me to explain a specific sequence, I could do so on both a literal and thematic level (in fact, much of my interpretation agreed with the breakdown of the series laid out in Brian's FC FAQ all those months ago). In short, I certainly felt like I got it, but even still, I didn't care. I didn't care and I felt that Morrison had failed in making me care. I wasn't cheering when I was supposed to be cheering, the tender moments were not warming my heart, and yes, I've felt the gamut of emotions reading comic books before, fuck, I've felt them reading comics by Morrison. Why should it be my fault that my reaction to this was "Bleh."?

No need to apologize. Final Crisis was awful, cover to cover.

It was an ambitious, pretentious awful, rather than the meandering mess that Countdown was.

Rusty Priske is 100% right.

Good strip though, I find it funny that someone said something positive about countdown even if it was a comic character.

yes, i get that. but with 8 1/2 what you would lose in narrative experimentation would outweigh what you gained. it's response from critics and target audience was and remains almost universally positive. with final crisis, i think most people could live without what you'd lose by changing the medium, based on how mixed the responses were to it.

But in both cases the medium is essential to the story being told, which is about the medium.

Not sure if this is a joke or not.

Helluva response if it is!

If not, well, you can ad-hom me till the cows come home, it won't change how horrible that comic book is. It misses 95% of its emotional marks ("Mandrak, guy who was introduced last issue, you are my father, but I must kill you! Audience, please care about my character arc! Oh and look, it's like old stories. Neat-O, right? ").

The thing is, you can reduce any story to a ridiculous sounding one liner like that - so it doesn't really add much to do it.

It is not necessarily the case that someone who dislikes an experimental work doesn't grasp the work or that he's in some way lacking in character or intelligence.

And I'm all for that, but with Final Crisis, the amount of times on the message boards someone will tell you why it sucks so bad by using a scene that they've completely misinterpreted 'he beat him by singing karaoke', that I've turned my back on benefit of doubt.
People who don't like it, just don't get it, and have a higher chance of cooties.

It would be a hard case to make given that he wrote one of the most esteemed novels in English literature.

Lolita is one of the most esteemed novels in our language???
I did not know that.
I thought Ulysses was.

In short, I certainly felt like I got it, but even still, I didn't care. I didn't care and I felt that Morrison had failed in making me care. I wasn't cheering when I was supposed to be cheering, the tender moments were not warming my heart, and yes, I've felt the gamut of emotions reading comic books before, fuck, I've felt them reading comics by Morrison. Why should it be my fault that my reaction to this was "Bleh."?

Maybe you've died a little inside, or your heart has gone cold - somethings gone wrong if you can't taste the radness!

It was an ambitious, pretentious awful, rather than the meandering mess that Countdown was.

How can a comic with Aquaman riding a seahorse be pretentious?

Helluva response if it is

I didn't think it was a joke, but thought I should acknowledge the possibility.

The thing is, you can reduce any story to a ridiculous sounding one liner like that

You can, but that particular one-liner compresses a couple of the real flaws of the story. Namely that it shoehorns in story elements with little thought or development and expects the audience to care. Also, that the story makes incessant "winks" at the audience. The meta and the connection to folktales is handled pretty clumsily, I feel.

Lolita is one of the most esteemed novels in our language???
I did not know that.
I thought Ulysses was.

You got me there. How can TWO things be esteemed at same time?! Preposterous, I couldn't say what was I thinking. Also,

http://www.friendswood.lib.tx.us/bookinfo/frpubtop150.htm

#5 and #9 might be of interest to you.

somethings gone wrong if you can't taste the radness!

Obviously I disagree, but still, I got a laugh out of this. Well put.

I didn't think it was a joke, but thought I should acknowledge the possibility.

Well, it was as much as joke as it was serious.

Namely that it shoehorns in story elements with little thought or development and expects the audience to care.

Can you give an example?

I mean it did start jumping around all over the place, but when the story is happening at different places, time and the main character is a universe, I tend to give a little leeway!

Also, I'm not sure the story had emotional cues - obviously there were a few pages that would focus on a sense of dread or sorrow, but overall, I'd say it was a rather unemotional story.

You got me there. How can TWO things be esteemed at same time?! Preposterous, I couldn't say what was I thinking.

That's not what I was saying, I was shocked that Lolita would be one of the most esteemed novels in the English language... Being in the top five of English novels in the twentieth century is a little more understandable.
(The Time list puts Ulysses at number one, just so you know).

Can you give an example?

Sure. I have to do this from memory though, since I don't have the issues on hand, you can correct me if I'm wrong. As I mentioned, the Nix Uotan/Mandrak son/father thing I felt was shoehorned in. I remember there maybe being a hint at it in Superman Beyond, but the relationship is not explored enough for anyone to really care and it doesn't really contribute anything to the bigger picture, other than being another winking nod at myths and fairy tales. IIRC, the scene was pretty much literally "You are my father and I am meeting you here for the first time. NOW DIE!" and then he proceeds to kill him.

Also, some more minor points: There was a "Fifth World" just being introduced at the end without real preface. There was the Darkseid slave kids showing up, despite not having appeared at all except in a couple of panels in the first issue. The deletion of these points would've made for a better story.

There's a difference between good compression and bad compression. To take an example from the same issue, there's a scene where Wonder Woman crushes the mask forced on her by Darkseid. This is a good bit of compression, since once you realize what the mask is and what it means for her, you realize that now she has triumphed over Darkseid's spell. Wonder Woman is a prominent character in the story, and this is her character arc, from a fighter against Darkseid, to a person under his control, to a person who's free from his control and has grown from the experience.

On the other hand, the children being preserved is bad compression, since the scene halts the reader in his tracks: "What the heck is going on here?" Then, once he realizes "Oh these are the kids from the first issue," the question arises "Why do I care?" Unlike Wonder Woman, these kids are nobodies in the story,* their whole purpose is to put Dan Turpin, an actual character, on Darkseid's trail. By issue 7, no reader was wondering or caring about what happened to these kids, and the inclusion of a resolution to such a trivial plot point distracts from the epic tone it seems like Morrison is trying to achieve in the issue.

*I don't mean that Wonder Woman is a "somebody" because she has her own ongoing and these kids are "nobodies" because they don't. I'm saying their nobodies since we get no insights into who they are other than just people under Darkseid's control).

Also, I'm not sure the story had emotional cues - obviously there were a few pages that would focus on a sense of dread or sorrow, but overall, I'd say it was a rather unemotional story.

I'd say that this a hard point to argue. It seems clear to me that the story wants the reader to care about Nix Uotan's romance w/ whoever, and feel, among other things, the threat that Darkseid and Mandrak pose to the multiverse. Rallying the troops and then mustering them against the big foe, proclaiming love before jumping into the fray, these are not typically things you'd call "unemotional." They're points which are supposed to have an impact, but don't here, because Morrison fumbles in the delivery.

That's not what I was saying, I was shocked that Lolita would be one of the most esteemed novels in the English language... Being in the top five of English novels in the twentieth century is a little more understandable.

You must have some pretty tough standards if you wouldn't consider top 5 in the most prolific century of English literature, highly highly esteemed. The list I gave you was a composite that factored in the TIME list and others, so by your own standards, Ulysses wouldn't even be one of the most esteemed novels in English.

Sure. I have to do this from memory though, since I don't have the issues on hand, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Not really, I haven't even read the thing!

Nah, just kidding.

But I have horrific memory and the books at home, so I'll take your word these events happened.
(Also worth noting, I read it in the hardcover, and did it in one sitting - with an ill-advised break to read the books in the 'FC Companion' (YAWN!), so I may have a different perspective without months between issues etc).

I remember there maybe being a hint at it in Superman Beyond, but the relationship is not explored enough for anyone to really care and it doesn't really contribute anything to the bigger picture, other than being another winking nod at myths and fairy tales.

Well, Superman Beyond exists to set up Mandrak... wasn't he the father to all monitors?

Also, some more minor points: There was a "Fifth World" just being introduced at the end without real preface.

Well, the fourth world just ended, so the fifth world has begun, and all the heroes are living in it!
I actually think this was more of a fumble on DC's part not to have this followed up with straight away.

By issue 7, no reader was wondering or caring about what happened to these kids, and the inclusion of a resolution to such a trivial plot point distracts from the epic tone it seems like Morrison is trying to achieve in the issue.

This is one of the one's I have a different perspective on having read it in one night - the kids were a key point at the start, and so were still in my mind.

I'd say that this a hard point to argue. It seems clear to me that the story wants the reader to care about Nix Uotan's romance w/ whoever, and feel, among other things, the threat that Darkseid and Mandrak pose to the multiverse. Rallying the troops and then mustering them against the big foe, proclaiming love before jumping into the fray, these are not typically things you'd call "unemotional." They're points which are supposed to have an impact, but don't here, because Morrison fumbles in the delivery.

With Nix Uotan, I don't think we were meant to necessarily feel the emotion, just note that emotion and drama had entered the lives of Monitors - characters who had been faceless until now.
This is why they disband at the end - they aren't different to us, and are unsuitable for their role.

You must have some pretty tough standards if you wouldn't consider top 5 in the most prolific century of English literature, highly highly esteemed.

I didn't think that was the greatest list in the world to be honest.

The list I gave you was a composite that factored in the TIME list and others, so by your own standards, Ulysses wouldn't even be one of the most esteemed novels in English.

I'd put it up there, it's just that list that doesn't!