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CSBG Archive

You Decide ’09 – Which Non-Cap Hero Do You Most Identify With the Avengers?

You know the bit – each day in October I’ll give you folks a poll question. Each poll will last four days. The results will be posted every Tuesday leading up to (and ending with) Election Day on the first Tuesday in November. Here is the master list of all questions asked so far!

Enjoy!


102 Comments

Wheres the Luke Cage option?

He’s with the Starfox, She-Hulk and Tigra options.

Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye or Vision. Though choice.

Hmm, I guess Hawkeye.

However, I would not choose Captain America if he were included. Sure, he is a mainstay, but not as much so as either Vision or Hawkeye. And Thor and Iron Man are at least good competition for him, visibility-wise and importance-wise.

Even before I saw the choices I thought of the Vision. Easy choice for me this time.

This should be hands down Hawkeye.

And could Marvel please get Clint Barton back into the Hawkeye suit? No more of this Ronin nonsense.

I voted Vision as well, but I could see Hawkeye. While Iron Man or Thor will probably bring it home, I feel they’re more associated with their solo adventures. Although Cap is also linked more closely with his solo stuff, the first thing that comes to my mind whenever I think “Avengers” is that Kirby cover for #4 with Cap leading the charge.

Hardest question for me yet. I really considered Iron Man, Hawkeye, and the Vision, but, in the end I went with the Wasp.

Bernard the Poet

October 23, 2009 at 3:44 am

Haven’t you got to have a pretty high opinion of yourself to identify with Captain America? I mean the man doesn’t have a single character flaw.

As I’m snide and cynical, I’m afraid I had to vote for Quicksilver.

The gent’s name is Hawkeye!

Iron Man. The Avengers would’ve been meeting in the alley behind the liquor store if not for Avengers’ Mansion. Actually, I associate Jarvis with the Avengers more than Iron Man, for Iron Man is … how you say? A douche-bag.

I went with the Vision, mostly because of him being the first Avenger to actually be introduced within their pages, with the specific intention of joining the team. That said, I very nearly went with Hank Pym, mostly cus I love a bit of Hank…

@Bernard the Poet: I think you read the question wrong.

The Vision, he has no life besides being an Avenger,

Best,
Hunter (Pedro Bouça)

Eric L. Sofer, the Silver Age Fogey

October 23, 2009 at 4:54 am

It’s DEFINITELY Edwin Jarvis, and he’s more of an Avenger than Cap is, I think.

But when I looked at the question, the first name I thought of was Iron Man. Then I looked at the list, and the name that came to the fore was the Vision (let’s remember who had the cover picture square for the LONGEST time…) Then I considered the stories that came in the 80s and later, and selected Hawkeye.

But how you can leave Jarvis off the list kind of amazes me. No, he’s not a “super” hero – nor is Cap, nor Hawkeye, nor the Black Widow, etc. He is not specifically a crime fighter, but he is the support mechanism that allows the Avengers to operate. (I’m quite sure the Fantastic Four would not have broken up umpty-’leven times if they’d had a Jarvis. Say! There’s an idea for a What If…!)

Perhaps we could allow that Jarvis will always be the best Honorary Avenger, to allow that he doesn’t wear yellow spandex and fly a quinjet…?

I remain,
Sincerely,
Eric L. Sofer
The Silver Age Fogey
x<]:o){

Iron Man. And judging from all the Hawkeye love in the comments, I’d be surprised if Iron Man didn’t win.

Wasp (Wonderman, Justice, or maybe Spiderman if they were included), even though Hawkeye is probably more of a contender for the “common person” role, I’ve always seen her as being it for the team.

Easy choice…Hawkeye.

This is similar to Deadshot being the most popular Suicide Squad member. You think of the guy who hangs around the most while making others feel uncomfortable. With Deadshot, you walk with a guy who’d kill you on the spot. With Hawkeye, you walk with a guy who makes you want to kill him.

Kurt Busiek had Cap seek him out first in during his initial Avengers story arc with George Perez because both Kurt and Cap believed that nobody cared more for the team than Hawkeye, despite his lack of powers and frequent complaints over who should call the shots.

I thought that there was no better argument in favor of Hawk’s loyalty after reading that issue. All they need now is to give him back his real identity. No Goliath and no more Ronin crap. He’s freaking Hawkeye and when I think Avengers, I think of him.

There can be no true Avengers roster without Hawkeye present.

I was surprised to find myself vote for the Wasp. She has been associated with the team practically her whole life, led the team more than once, and is almost never the subject of a solo story. Her low power-level combined with her personality makes her more of a team player than a lead character. Hawkeye, Vision, even Quicksilver and Hank Pym have stronger personalities, and more storytelling options open to them as lead characters, than the Wasp.

Hawkeye, easily.

My list would be:

Captain America
Hawkeye
Wasp
Vision

I’m surprised about the Iron Man support. He wouldn’t even be close for me. Thor would be higher. He would definitely be last out of the characters listed and would be behind some characters NOT listed.

And I don’t dislike Iron Man at all.

The Wasp, definitely. To Jan, being an Avenger is the most important thing in her life (once it stopped being Hank). She’s been there since the beginning, and she’s a natural choice when putting together a new team.

Gotta go with Vision. Second goes to Hawkeye.

Like Bernard, I also initially misread the question as ‘Which non-Cap hero do you most identify with?’ – which might indeed make for an interesting poll question one day. Although I can’t imagine anyone saying they identify with Captain America, except maybe Barack Obama. I’d expect Spider-Man or Kitty Pride to be the big winners on that poll.

Oh yeah – Vison for me, with Hawkeye a close second.

Iron Man. Civil War proved that he and Cap are the Mind and Soul (respectively) of the team.

It never quite feels like the Avengers unless Hawkeye is on the team.

I should have said the Wasp (Jan), but went for Hank Pym as a political statement for writers to stop beating on the poor guy. He’s a great character.

Oh, hell, I went with the Wasp. A number of those characters can stand on their own outside the Avengers; the Wasp can’t, and I’m not sure she’s ever had her own book (maybe a mini?) outside of the Avengers. (Even Hank had the starring role in Tales to Astonish; Wasp was his sidekick).

But then, the Avengers are a TEAM book. I don’t know that anyone can sum the team up in one member, which accounts for the diversity of response here. This question is like asking which ingredient best sums up a pizza.

I was undecided between Vision, Wasp and Hawkeye. They’re the most recognizable Avengers who don’t have their own books.

And in the end I went with the Wasp. She’s a founder, she has been with the team longer than Hawkeye or Vision, and unlike those two she was never a villain or tried to take over the world. GO JAN!

Splint Chesthair

October 23, 2009 at 6:28 am

Vision, for the same reasons noted by everyone else, but Hawkeye is an extremely close second. More than the Justice League, the Avengers have guys who are team players above everything else.

However, if Cage had been on the list, I would have had to think about it for a while. I used to have a hard time imagining the Avengers without Thor or Vision, but now I have a hard time thinking of an Avengers without Cage. He’s really become the heart of the team without Steve Rogers or Tony Stark around, and I really hope there’s a place for him (and Spidey) once the Avengers are re-established.

…And before someone says that being a founder and having been in the team longer than Hawkeye or Vision are redundant, let me point out that the Hulk was a founder but he hasn’t been in the team longer than any of the above options.

Vision is the Avengers more than anyone else. He’s kept the place running for a long time.

I would say Ironman second. It’s basically Tony’s team, his house, his resources. The Avengers basically wouldn’t be around if he didn’t want them to be.

“Wheres the Luke Cage option?

Brian Cronin
October 23, 2009 at 2:22 am
He’s with the Starfox, She-Hulk and Tigra options.”

How many more issues does Luke Cage have to be the leader of the team before he gets an option? He has been the backbone of the New Avengers, not an also ran like the ones you mentioned.

While he doesn’t make me think of the Avengers, I wonder at what point would he start showing up in polls like this? Another 5 years? 10? 20?

While he doesn’t make me think of the Avengers, I wonder at what point would he start showing up in polls like this? Another 5 years? 10? 20?

10 years sounds about right.

LouReedRichards

October 23, 2009 at 6:43 am

Vision, but it was a close call between him, the Wasp and Hawkeye.
On any given day it could be any one of those three.

as much as i like all the choices had to go with the vision for he showed that one need not be flesh and blood to be a hero and worthy of the avengers that plus even an android can cry. though i almost thought of giving Scarlet witch the vote .

If Luke can obtain Avengers staying power once Bendis is gone, then he can party with the big boys. Otherwise, he’s just another Monica Rambeau.

I like these options.

As a youngster I’d hav said Vision, and the Golden Avenger gets votes, but I’ll settle on Janet Pym

Easy.
The Vision.
With the exceptions of the two Vision/Scarlet Witch mini series the Vision’s only “home” has been in the pages of The Avengers. (Mighty, West Coast, etc….)
All of the other characters have been featured or starred or co-starred in other books.

Huh, it didn’t even occur to me that yeah, Monica Rambeau was in the Avengers for longer than Luke has been so far, and she, too, was leader of the Avengers.

Black Knight would be a choice before Luke Cage.

Wasp, followed close by Hawkeye and Vision.

Tom from West Chester

October 23, 2009 at 7:02 am

Hawkeye is my favorite of the bunch, but I went with Iron Man.

When I started reading comics Hawkeye was heading up the West Coast Avengers with Iron Man, but I knew at that point that Iron Man was one of the founders of the real Avengers. So despite later learning that Hawkeye was part of Cap’s Kooky Quartet and had a long run in the Avengers before I came along, a part of me will always think of Hawkeye as one of the spin-off Avengers.

The two Avengers teams we need…
THE MIGHTY AVENGERS(Public Team) ….Black Panther, Iron Man, Thor, Wasp(Janet Van Dyne), The Vision, Hawkeye, Songbird, and Captain Marvel(Monica Rambeau).

AVENGERS: S.H.I.E.L.D.(First Strike/Black OPs Team) …Nick Fury, Captain America, Ms Marvel, Black Widow, Ant-Man(Hank Pym), War Machine, Scarlet Spider, and The Falcon.

Vision. All of the other characters have or have had an identity outside of the Avengers books (just barely in the case of the Pyms, but still).

I will now rank every Avenger ever in descending order of Avengerness:

Okay, no I won’t. I think I already got into that argument here once. But for me, this answer has to be either Vision or Hawkeye. I can sort of understand the support for Iron Man, but it feels like a more recent thing, because there were very long stretches where he wasn’t on the book because he was off doing his own thing in his own book. Which goes triple for Thor. It’s almost a coin flip between Hawkeye and Vision, but I went with Vision; he was created specifically for the Avengers and has stayed there for the past 40 years. Even Hawkeye branched out a couple times (Thunderbolts, for instance).

Now if only the current Vision hadn’t been turned into the fourth Jonas brother…

I went with the Wasp. People tend to underestimate small packages.

One of my favorite ALL TIME 12 month runs of any comic ever is Avengers v1 #50-#62. ALL TIME. Roy Thomas, John Buscema, George Klein, retelling of Cap’s origin with Cap there to witness it, Masters of Evil with Ultron As the Crimson Cowl, original X-men, Black Panther, Grim Reeper, Ymir And Surtur, masked Dr. Strange, Black Knight, man who killed Goliath….. His name is Yellowjacket! (an his subsequent marriage “to Miss Janet Van Dyne …”Till Death Do us Part!”) all highlighted the introduction of the character I identify with the Avengers much more than Cap, the Vision! His character made in the Avengers for the Avengers. No other character on the list can claim that. “Even an Android Can Cry “,one of the most interesting, soul-stirring sagas ever to be read in the annals of the book. My vote goes to the scarlet synthoid.

Couldn’t decide on Iron Man, Thor, or Hawkeye so I went with the Vision. I remember gonig through my brothers Avengers comics as a kid and Vision sticking out as much as the other more iconic Avengers (especially if it was a Perez or Byrne cover). I considered Wasp as a sentimental pick since she was the chairman when I started collecting monthly for myself.

While it has been acknowledged that the Vision was created specifically to be an Avenger (by the creative staff), to me, it seems Hawkeye should win this poll.

Of all the other members, only Captain America has been in more issues of the Avengers than Hawkeye. Our favorite archer has “Avengers” running through his veins. No more Ronin nonsense! Bring back Hawkeye.

when i read this question i just scanned the choices for hawkeye, he is always the first dude to pop into my mind when i think avengers – the underdog who thinks he’s the big dog.

Vision. He’s to the Avengers what the Martian Manhunter is to the JLA.

The Vision is the Martian Manhunter of the Avengers– if he ain’t there, it ain’t the Avengers.

Oops. Looks like I owe Chad a Coke!

Since Luke Cage isn’t an option I have to go with Hawkeye by a landslide out of the selection given. Hawkeye always believed in the Avengers, even if it meant going toe to toe with some of the Avengers greats like Captain America or Iron Man, He’s lead a couple of incarnations of the team and he’s been around and played very important roles in most of their key events (i.e. Kree/Skrull war as Goliath). I would have picked Luke Cage more recently because he revitilized the true standard for what the Avengers should stand for. And he’s made them cool again. What started as a writer’s man crush on a comic book character turned into something special.

Oh @Chad Nevett, I slightly disagree with that statement. There was a long time where you couldn’t have a JLA team without Martian Manhunter. He was in every incarnation of the JLA until more recent times. He embodies JLA. His death had huge significance with the team. Vision could never have that kind of an impact on a team. While he had his hey days in the late 70′s to the 80′s, He was never somebody you would think the Avengers couldn’t do without. If there’s anybody I would compare MM to in a team aspect with the Avengers, it would be Captain America.

My first exposure to The Avengers was the old Marvel Superheroes “animated” show. Something about Hawkeye just clicked with me. I didn’t get into comics until many years later and by then Hawkeye was leading the West Coast Avengers, and I liked him even more then. After getting some back-issues and learning the reasons why The Vision picked him to lead the new team, I couldn’t have agreed more.

The guys worked with nearly everyone. To me, The Vision has to lose some points because he’s no longer the same character. During my time heavily reading comics, Iron Man simply hasn’t been an Avengers mainstay. He never stayed long after Armor Wars, faked his death, broke off an formed Force Works, etc.

I was ready to vote for the Beast, was saddened that he isn’t on the list.

Surely Hank McCoy was an Avenger for about the same time as Quicksilver was?

Gotta go for Wasp now.

Lu — But Cap wasn’t on the team for long stretches, too and it survived. I didn’t necessarily mean that the Vision is the heart of the team in the same way as J’onn, more as a steady member that exists pretty much only within the confines of the team and has done so for a long time. Even now, Vision is with the Young Avengers helping them become ready to be Avengers someday.

Bill — I’m just surprised it took that long for someone to say it.

As a P.S. I identify with Hank, Jan, Clint, Pietro, Wanda and even Simon(Wonder Man) as well as the Vision, ALL before Cap. The Avengers is THEIR book, period.

10 more years before Luke Cage becomes an option made me laugh. I would pick Gilgamesh, Sersi, Black Knight, Rick Jones, Mantis, Swordsman, Ben Grimm, Sue Storm, Reed Richards, Black Widow, She-Hulk, Hercules, Doctor Druid, Wonder-Man, Moon Knight, Mockingbird, Monica Rambeau, Rage or Jarvis before I would ever consider Luke Cage, or Spider-Man for that matter.

Really, are the New Avengers the Avengers? Not in my book. Great team, but not the Avengers. In my mind, Luke Cage has a stronger case for being the ‘Fifth’ member of the Fantastic Four than he does as an Avenger.

Chad — I see what you’re saying. That makes total sense. As a steady member the Vision is similar to MM on the JLA. And yes I do agree Cap was known to be away from the team in long stretches. Personally those are the times I would lose interest and stop following. That’s probaby why Cap seems more comparable to me than Vision. Not because I was a huge Captain America fan, but because the Avengers weren’t the Avenger’s without Cap.

Michael
October 23, 2009 at 6:45 am

If Luke can obtain Avengers staying power once Bendis is gone, then he can party with the big boys. Otherwise, he’s just another Monica Rambeau.

That is a perfect comparison! And i LOVE me some Monica!

I first thought of Clint Barton when i saw this poll, but then when i opened it there was no other option than The Vision. The Vision could and should be in every line up. Clint can be traded off for other interesting human characters, but no one replaces The Vision.

@JoeMac – back in 2004 with the initial introduction of Luke Cage to the Avengers I would have agreed with you and picked anybody you listed (except for the members of the FF who were Avengers, They can’t be synonymous with a team…when they..already are a team…can they??). But thinking back to the majority of this decade, who was at the forefront of most of their significant storylines? Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, the whole Mighty vs. New Avengers stories (God those were annoying). Blame it on the main writer for the Avengers in this decade: Brian Bendis. But surprisingly it’s worked. I agree with not recognizing Spider-Man as well. I think that’s what makes Luke Cage stand out more in this category. Even though he’s gotten numerous pushes, he never did have a successful solo career like the Thors, Caps, Iron Mans and Spideys of the world.

Jan is the heart of the Avengers and only takes leave of the team for the love of her life,
while Hawkeye will storm off screaming… “Find another chump to kick around Avengers, I’m out of here” if you don’t agree with him he’s tied with Captain America as best Avengers leader ever.

Wolverine!

Splint Chesthair

October 23, 2009 at 9:04 am

I’m surprised so many people are comparing Cage to Monica Rambeau, considering that A) Monica was a brand-new character when she joined the Avengers and B) her time as leader was short and pretty uneventful by Avengers standards.

Not only was Cage an experienced superhero when he joined the team, but he took the leadership position during one of the team’s most difficult periods ever. Luke Cage has been tasked with keeping the team together through the death of Captain America, the Skrull invasion, being hunted down by Tony Stark, being hunted down by Norman Osborn, etc. On top of that, Cage’s team is made up of guys who are mostly used to working solo (Spidey, Wolverine, Bucky-Cap). There have been plenty of times where he could have shut it down and said “Screw it, I guess we’re not the Avengers after all” and let Stark’s team, Pym’s team or Osborn’s team take the name, but Cage carries on because he knows it’s what Captain America wanted.

Luke Cage understands that doing the right thing is what makes the Avengers the Avengers, not the Quinjets or the mansion or the ID cards, and he’s doing the right thing even though he knows it puts the bullseye on him. And that’s why he’s more of an Avenger than Black Knight or Tigra or Swordsman or anybody else who has appeared in more issues of the “real” Avengers.

Went with Vision (with Hawkeye a close second). Vision’s the guy I grew up with, he was in the corner box, and if the Avengers were said to have a “big four” I’d vote Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and, yup, Vision (look how well they fit together in that Avengers 93 moment posted earlier).

Actually iff we were going with the team I grew up with, my core Avengers are Beast, Wonder Man, Scarlet Witch and Vision. It’s amazing that there were about 5 or 6 years there when Beast was synonymous with this team. Those were the days…

THE DEFENDERS(Street/Magic/Cosmic/Non-Team)
Doctor Strange, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Woman, and Machine Man.

Lu, I tend to think you have it backwards, though I guess it’s just a matter of eras. Martian Manhunter (who I absolutely love) was almost a non factor in the Justice League for decades. Part of that is just the nature of the team at the time, which was more of a collection of guest stars and team-ups than an actual team book, but there were years at a time when you would forget he was even there. It wasn’t until the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League that he really became the man in JLA. Vision, on the other hand, is just about the exact opposite. He was basically an active member in Avengers from #57-211, anchoring the team; it was the Vision who appeared in the corner box of Avengers for many, many years. I would say that for a period of nearly 20 years, Vision was the character most associated with Avengers. However, the one two punch of the V&SW limited series by Englehart and Byrne’s mad geek crush on Wanda and his resulting robot-penis envy ended up essentially destroying the character.

In sum, I think you’re mistaken in saying that “Vision could never have that kind of impact on the team” because he did; and “He was never somebody you would think the Avengers couldn’t do without” is, I think, also wrong, because for two decades most fans thought exactly that.

Busiek made a good case for Hawkeye being the guy who most identifies with being an Avenger, so I almost felt like I’d already been told how to answer this.

Maybe because of that, I went with Vision. Not only was he the only one here to have debuted in the Avengers, but when they wanted just one face to represent the Avengers in the corner cover box, it was always the Vision.

Several seductive choices, Vision and Hawkeye strong among them. They are through and through avengers. Still, I went with Iron Man, despite what Civil War’s done to him, the Avengers, and his status with the Avengers, based on a completely personal and opinionated criterion I just made up for myself =D

If this character had never been, how great would Avengers history have been changed?

Anyway, to me the problem with focusing on what’s going on *now* with decisions like this is that it could easily turn into just a blip on the radar of the Avengers’ decades-long history. “Oh man, you remember that 2K event era with all that counterantidisreassembling?” This whole period could be spoken of in the same tone that is currently used for the word “pouches” in costuming.

And make all the disparraging remarks about Monica Rambeau, please, it only proves the point more. The comparison is based on the fact that the writer of Avengers pushed the idea of Rambeau as the Avenger nexus…which was promptly gone with the writer. The current writer has Cage as his nexus, but will it outlast the writer? The problem of now-focus is we can’t know, so I’d say its appropriate to reserve judgement on Cage’s identifiability with the Avengers, as opposed to his identifiability with Bendis.

Had no hesitation whatsoever in voting for the Wasp.
I can understand the arguments for Vision & Hawkeye, but Hawkeye joined other teams whereas (to my knowledge) Jan was only ever an Avenger, and Vision always struck me as being just a soldier, whereas Jan always came across as being in chargeof the whole team.

Went with Vision, because Hawkeye is a close second. The Vision is almost exclusively an Avenger. Unlike most (all?) of the others, made his first appearance in the book and almost all of his stories have been contained within the pages of an Avengers series. He held the team together for so long. Hawkeye’s been a Thunderbolt, he’s had more solo stories, he’s interacted more with the rest of the Marvel Universe. Definitely an option, but Vision gets it. Besides, I think Clint Barton’s time as Hawkeye is done. While I’m not that excited about him as Ronin, I think it has potential, and I do think Kate Bishop’s doing a wonderful job as Hawkeye.

I had to go with Jan, because I love her, but I can’t deny that Hawkeye and Vision (and Wanda, whom nobody seems to be picking) are great choices. These are the people that spring to mind when you think of the Avengers.

So which idiot at Marvel is responsible for killing Janet? Is it Bendis, or one of the editors? If anyone knows, could you please take a sledghammer and smash his head in? And then go after the guy who killed Kitty Pryde. Thank you.

And to the one above who said that the Wasp couldn’t carry a solo series, that’s completely wrong. A wasp series would be great (presuming they got a decent writer). It’s just that the idiots in charge have never given her the chance.

Oh, and I do see Monica Rambeau as one of the core members of the team. I’m still waiting for her return so it can feel like the real Avengers again.

The Vision.

Scott, maybe I do have it a little backwards in terms of the time lines and the relevance of Martian Manhunter vs. The Vision. But I still think the Vision is somebody the Avengers could do without NOW specifically because of the way he was written for so many years. You are correct that Vision was a prominent figurehead of the team starting from Avengers 57, but personally I don’t think it went as long as you think. Steve Englehart and Jim Shooter wrote him best back in the seventy’s to early eighties. Until the Vision and the Scarlet Witch limited series. As you said correctly, that along with the storyline disassembling Vision) was the characters downfall and I believe really showed the inherent weakness in the character as a member of the Avengers.

Since he’s an android I found it was always easy for the writers to breakdown this character, figuratively and literally, and put him back together again as it fit within the context of the story. After he lost that emotional appeal in the late 80′s to early 90′s and become a second rate Commander Data from Star Trek he went downhill from there. When he wasn’t in a story you could fill his role with the mechanical tools of an Iron Man or the intelligence of a Hank Pym. Martian Manhunter, while certainly never in the limelight as the Vision was in the past, never hit that slump, Because of the story behind this character. He became someone writers would find easy to fit in to their story, from the Steve Englehart, to Gerry Conway and the Giffen era. Yes you are correct it wasn’t until Giffen came along that he became a real prominent figure, but that time period was in the early 80′s, longer than you may think I believe.

Again I think maybe you are right and it is a matter of eras. It’s also tougher for the JLA since they have a lot more household names linked to the team than the Avengers do which I also think speaks volumes for the Martian Manhunter since he’s still able to stay relevant amongst all of them.

When I got into comics- the Kang Trilogy prior to Under Siege- Jan was chairperson of the Avengers. On some level, that’s how I’ll always see the character, so she gets my vote.

Hawkeye and Iron Man would be my runner-ups from the first 30 or so issues of West Coast Avengers.

I guess related to that, when I got into comics, Vision and Scarlet Witch were retired. I know they have a lot of history with the Avengers before and after, but they don’t scream Avenger to me.

(hrm, and as I ponder it more, I wonder why Black Knight isn’t on the list)

The Martian Manhunter’s influence in the JLA’s history is VASTLY overrated, and the “soul of the team” thing was invented by writers after J’onn had spent decades without appearing on the book.

And Monica Rambeau to Luke Cage can’t be seriously compared, except if they’re put on the same shelf due to skin color. Luke Cage has been a “player” in the Marvel Universe for decades before joining the Avengers, while Monica was made an Avenger and thrown into an artificial leadership position soon after being created, purely by writers’ fiat. Come ON now.

And saying that Gilgamesh or Rage are more “Avengers” than Luke Cage is just silly. Gilgamesh was a blip on the radar compared to Cage. And the folks who say that Spider-Man and Luke Cage aren’t “real Avengers” would have said the same thing about Quicksilver and Hawkeye when “Cap’s Kooky Quartet” was introduced. Some people have allergic reactions to change.

“I think Clint Barton’s time as Hawkeye is done. While I’m not that excited about him as Ronin, I think it has potential, and I do think Kate Bishop’s doing a wonderful job as Hawkeye.”

I have to agree. I think Clint’s evolution to Ronin looking like a good thing, wasn’t he mentored by the Swordsman as well as Cap, not to mention he already given up the identity before (v1 #63). Only thing wrong about him in the Ronin costume is that Echo stories seemed like they could have had potential.

I picked Vision. For so long he was in the top corner of the book that it just became seared in my mind .

But Les, in terms of Monica vs. Cage, the question isn’t what character has had the biggest influence on the Marvel Universe, it’s which identifies most with the Avengers. I think the situations are perfectly comparable, as has been demonstrated several times by previous posters. I also would like to point out that your statement that “Monica was made an Avenger and thrown into an artificial leadership position soon after being created” is not accurate. Monica joined the team as an “Avenger in training” in Avengers #227 and didn’t become leader until #279. That’s 62 issues, or a period of over 5 years real time. In other words, significantly less time than it took for Luke Cage to be placed in charge of the team due to “writers’ fiat”.

Look, I like Cage and I don’t mind him on the Avengers either, but leaving him off the list is a perfectly reasonable decision.

I’ve gotta go with Hawkeye. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that old boy do ANYTHING that wasn’t related to the Avengers in some form or another.

The Wasp. And I’m surprised that so few people support her in the comments.

All the other characters have reasons why they have less Avengers cred than Janet.

- Iron Man and Thor have successfull careers outside the team. Both of them have had several long leaves of absence too.

- Hawkeye is a very good choice, but less so than Janet, since he has branched out to other teams on occasion, like the Thunderbolts and (briefly) the Defenders. Wasp is pure Avenger. Still, Clint would be my second choice.

- Quicksilver is too connected to non-Avengers characters like the Inhumans and Magneto and X-Factor.

- The Vision was once the heart of the team, but has not been a major Avenger at least since the mid-1980s.

- Hank Pym is a Avenger veteran, but seems painfully undecided wether he’d even like to be a costumed superhero or not.

- The Scarlet Witch is a core member, no doubt. She would be my third choice. I would rank her below the Wasp and Hawkeye, because she doesn’t seem to love being an Avenger as much as Jan and Clint do.

I have no great problem with Luke Cage in the Avengers, but can we stop with the “you people would have said the same thing about Quicksilver and Hawkeye in 1965!”

There is no comparision. Hawkeye was made an Avenger when the team was all of 15 issues old. Cage got in the team after more than 500 issues. Of course people would be more resistant to change after 500 issues. Luke Cage’s place in Avengers history is still very small.

Vincent Paul Bartilucci

October 23, 2009 at 3:35 pm

Iron Man. Thor. Iron Man. Thor. Iron Man. Thor … AAAAAAAAH!

Okay, Iron Man.

Love Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, and the Pyms but w/o Cap, Iron Man, AND Thor, it just ain’t the Avengers to me.

What bugs me most about the last few years of Marvel continuity is that the dynamic of the “Big Three” Avengers has pretty much been ruined forever.

My ideal (Non-Big Three) Avengers line up:

Hawkeye
Doctor Pym
Wasp
Vision
Wonder Man
She Hulk
Black Widow

With a nice Hawkeye/She Hulk/Black Widow love triangle going on.

Powers aside, I always felt that Hawkeye (not Vision) was the Martian Manhunter of the Avengers.

The Avengers don’t felt right without him.

Tough question, I love every Avenger great and small. It was between Wasp and Hawkeye, and I chose Hawkeye

I really don’t identify with any superheroes… I just couldn’t be further removed from them. But I went with ,Vision, because he is a character I have loved since he was introduced. Wonder Man wasn’t on the list but I dig him two. Man, I like all the 70′s era Avengers.

Wonder Man probably should’ve been on the list in place of Quicksilver. I hardly ever think of Quicksilver as an Avenger. Maybe it’s the time periods I’m used to. The first Avengers I ever read was the first chapter of Quicksilver’s wedding (the actual wedding was in Fantastic Four, but I didn’t get to read that until much, much later). So he was already gone by the time I knew who the Avengers were. I don’t think I ever saw him as an Avenger until he joined the West Coast team, and I only read a few of those. Now he’s in Hank’s Avengers, and I have read some of those, but that’s all the Avengers I’ve seen him in, really. I’m more used to seeing him elsewhere.
But Wonder Man has been an Avenger in most of the periods I’ve read. I’ve rarely seen him when he wasn’t an active Avenger. He just seems more Avengerish to me.

Tough call between Iron Man and the Mighty Thor. Went with the Odinson because he doesn’t seem to be getting any love.

Blue-furred Beast for me.

What?

Ok then, I’ll have to go with Wonder Man.

D’oh!!!!

Agreed, Wonder Man makes more sense than Quicksilver… but he wouldn’t win anyway, so I suppose it’s no biggie.

Tony Stark owns the mansion, finances team and is a founding member, so I can understand voting for him. But.. Pretty much throughout The Avengers history Iron Man has been the designated jobber: the team member that gets beat up to make the villains look good. Can’t vote for him.

Thor plays the cavalry like no other, but is absent most of the time.

Even The Eternity punched Hank Pym in the face on sight.

My vote is for Jan. Stern’s Wasp was my favourite chairperson of Avengers and she is solely an Avenger and not a solo act.

Bernard the Poet

October 24, 2009 at 8:48 am

I misread the question as “which Avenger do you most identify with” -doh!

Oh well, there was no other way that Quicksilver was going to get any votes.

I never cared for Thor as a solo character, but I dig him as an Avenger.

Scarlet witch is my homegirl! I have to give my respect for the badass chicks :P

I associate Luke, Spidey and Wolverine as much with the Fantastic Four as I do with the Avengers. Like, “Oh yeah, that happened.”

It was a close call for me between Iron Man and the Vision, but I went with ol’ shellhead.

Lobstah Johnston

October 25, 2009 at 1:13 pm

It’s interesting to see how people are reading this question in at least two different ways.

Type 1: Which Avenger do you personally identify with.

Type 2. Which Avenger do you associate most with the Avengers.

I initially read it as Type 1, but upon re-reading it more carefully, I believe it is the second way that is the intention of the question.

Yeah I misread the question as type 1, luckily my answer to both is Wasp although it makes my comment about Justice and Spiderman being my other 2 choices a little wonky sounding.

how about Jarvis

Couldn’t decide on this one. It’s a toss up between Iron Man and Thor, because they both belong there as much as Cap (even if Thor isn’t there a lot of the time). Though, Hank Pym and Scarlet Witch definitely come in at a close second (well, at least before she went crazy and tried to kill all the mutants on earth). Because of Peter David, I identify Quicksilver more with X-Factor. Or even the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

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