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CSBG Archive

Top 100 Comic Book Storylines #50-46

Here are the next five storylines on the countdown, as voted on by you, the readers!! Here is the master list of all storylines featured so far.

(As usual, just the info now and details later)

50. “Final Crisis” by Grant Morrison, JG Jones, Doug Mahnke, Carlos Pacheco, Lee Garbett, Matthew Clark, Marco Ruby and a host of inkers (Final Crisis #1-7, Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1-2, Final Crisis: Submit #1 plus I would throw in Batman #682-683) – 184 points (3 first place votes)

49. “Marvels” by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross (Marvels #1-4, plus #0, I guess) – 186 points (4 first place votes)

47 (tie). “Rock of Ages” by Grant Morrison, Howard Porter, Gary Frank, Greg Land, John Dell and Bob McLeod Doug Mahnke, Carlos Pacheco, Lee Garbett, Matthew Clark, Marco Ruby and a host of inkers (JLA #10-15) – 188 points (2 first place votes)

47 (tie). “Death of Captain America” by Ed Brubaker, Steve Epting, Mike Perkins, Jackson Guice, Roberto De La Torre, Luke Ross plus a bunch of inkers (Captain America Vol. 5 #25-42) – 188 points (4 first place votes)

46. “Seven Soldiers of Victory” by Grant Morrison, JH Williams, Simone Bianchi, Cameron Stewart, Ryan Sook, Pasqual Ferry, Doug Mahnke, Frazer Irving, Yanick Paquette, Billy Patton and Freddie Williams (plus a host of inkers) (Seven Soldiers #0-1, plus four issue mini-series for Shining Knight, Manhattan Guardian, Zatanna, Mister Miracle, Frankenstein, Klarion and Bulleteer) – 190 points (3 first place votes)

142 Comments

It’s Grant Morrison Day, with special musical guest star Kurt Busiek, and the comedy stylings of Ed Brubaker!

I am genuinely surprised Final Crisis made the list at all, much less as high as it is. The miniseries itself is a muddled mess, not to mention the fact that nobody seems to be able to agree which issues are necessary to the event and which are ancillary.

I am genuinely surprised Final Crisis made the list at all, much less as high as it is. The miniseries itself is a muddled mess,

The mini-series was great, with some occasionally muddled artwork from artists pressed for time, though.

not to mention the fact that nobody seems to be able to agree which issues are necessary to the event and which are ancillary.

It is pretty clear that the issues written by Morrison are necessary, everything else is ancillary.

Marvels makes the second of my votes to show up. And boy am I sad about how low it is. I gave it my #2 vote. And Brian? #0, you guess? That’s one of my favorite comics ever.

And today is decreasing my stats.

Haven’t (and probably won’t) read Final Crisis

I do not recall if I’ve read Rock of Ages or not. I read the beginning of Morrison’s JLA but suspect I didn’t get that far.

I’ve read the first trade of Seven Soldiers and will consider finishing it one day.

And Brian? #0, you guess?

Most folks did not vote for it when they voted, but I think I should include it.

Pretty solid damn day. Marvels is probably the only Busiek and/or Ross work I still find readable. And the other entries are all top-notch stuff.

Making a note of suspicious behavior on the parts of subjects Nowlin and Smith. Should drop by for a visit. Ask some questions that need answers.

Wow, my first five-for-five day, bringing my personal total to 35/55.

I’m surprised to see Final Crisis so high, and Marvels so low; that’s me just guessing at people’s favorites, as I love both stories. Man today’s really skewing towards contemporary work as well. Marvels is the oldest work on here, followed by Rock of Ages!

This list just gets more and more interesting.

Fair enough, Brian. I know I voted for it.

And Joe~ Do you not like Astro City? We have nothing in common.

I liked the first couple arcs of Astro City. But between muddy art and a never-changing bittersweet mood, it got repetitive and dull quickly.

I think “Marvels” is my first vote to actually show up! I still have high hopes for another 5 of my top ten!

So what’s definitely coming up? We know the Galactus saga is. We know, unfortunately, Dark Phoenix will be there, and Crisis on Infinite Earths. Civil War, maybe (ugh) Infinite Crisis. Hmmmm.

I’m glad to see both “Final Crisis” and “Batman RIP” make the list. I thought both were works of genius, but given the intensely negative reactions they recieved within certain fanboy circles for not being Generic Superhero Crossover Event 101 and actually trying to go outside the box and try something different, I thought it would be many years before they got the recognition they so richly deserve. So I’m glad to see them getting some respect here.

Rock of Ages seems to have an incorrect number of points (it looks like Brian copied FC’s points into it.)

Rock of Ages seems to have an incorrect number of points (it looks like Brian copied FC’s points into it.)

Gracias.

Yeah, I always use the first one as a template for the other four, but I see I forgot to get change the numbers.

I haven’t read Final Crisis yet, I’ve been bored of events for a long time now, after buying the borefest that was Genesis. Some years later, due to the hype, I decided to get Infinite Crisis, which just reasserted my initial boredom of big events. I will get around eventually to reading Final Crisis, but it will not happen fast.

Marvels is great, it’s a very good work, and I believe it deserves to be higher on the list.

Rock of Ages is a good, solid storyline, but I still prefer New World Order over it.

I haven’t read Death of Captain America, but that’s not strange considering that i’ve never actually read a single Captain America comic. I keep hearing good things about it and it’s the second storyline from Brubaker’s run that appears on this list, so I’m considering reading it.

But of all these, the one that I would have included on my list if it wasn’t already filled with Morrison works is Seven Soldiers. I enjoyed some miniseries more than others, but the storyline was amazing as a whole, with some beautiful art.

Born Again is another story definitely coming at some point.

Judging by how much the list started schewing to new stuff, I’m totally expecting a lot of Loeb near the top of the list.

All good picks today. I think Seven Soldiers made my list.

Still to come:
Watchmen
Dark Phoenix Saga
Born Again
Season of Mists
Crisis on Infinite Earths
Doll’s House
Kingdom Come
Kraven’s Last Hunt
V for Vendetta
Batman Year One
Coming of Galactus
All Star Superman
New Frontier
Infinity Gauntlet
Civil War
Ultimates Long Halloween

That’s 17.

Plus maybe:
A Lonely Place of Dying?
Spider-Man vs. Juggernaut?
Trial of Galactus
Avengers-Defenders War
Hush
Fall of the Mutants
Identity Crisis
Judas Contract?

That’s 8. Any I’m wrong about?

Something from:
Ultimate Spider-Man
Animal Man
Preacher
Morrison’s X-Men
Astonishing X-Men
Maybe one more Swamp Thing?
Simonson’s Thor?

That’s another 8 if I’m right.

Another 12?
Emerald Dawn?
Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?

God forbid Secret Invasion?
God forbid Millar’s Spider-Man?
God forbid One More Day?
God forbid Infinite Crisis?

I’m running low on ideas.
The Master Planner Saga?
Secret Wars?
Another Thanos battle?
Tower of Babel?

Little help?

Duh. Dark Knight Returns.

“Judging by how much the list started schewing to new stuff, I’m totally expecting a lot of Loeb near the top of the list.”

I do expect “The Long Halloween” to rank highly. Whether you like it or not, you can’t argue it was a perfect showcase for the strengths of a serialised storyline. It was like the comic book version of “Who shot JR?”

I haven’t read Final Crisis yet, I’ve been bored of events for a long time now, after buying the borefest that was Genesis. Some years later, due to the hype, I decided to get Infinite Crisis, which just reasserted my initial boredom of big events. I will get around eventually to reading Final Crisis, but it will not happen fast.

Final Crisis and Genesis have very little in common past both being ostensibly crossovers.

Chris, that seems like a pretty good prediction of what’s coming. In terms of anything you missed, something from “The Walking Dead” could be a possibility. It showed up in quite a few people’s “honorable mentions” lists, so perhaps it made the top 10 of other voters.

I’d prefer we not do the whole “doing the math” thing with the remaining storylines – it tends to be a bit of a fun-sucker (like playing Hearts with a math expert).

Good guesses, Chris. Probably Age of Apocalypse too. Maybe Inferno or Mutant Massacre.

Well… Technically both have Darkseid as the big bad and the New Gods in general play a big part as well. Oh, and by the end of both of them, Darkseid is “dead”, stuck in The Wall in Genesis and just plain gone in Final Crisis. Both also had a metatext sort of ending, though Genesis’s was extremely bad while Final Crisis was just confusing to some, entertaining to most.

I know Loeb has big chances with his best works, but while I wrote that I was thinking about “Ultimatum” and the such also appearing. Do Not Want.

I like to play hearts.

Sorry, Brian. Posted that before I saw your post.

I like to play hearts.

I bet you do – math experts loooove to play hearts. Not so much fun for the people playing with them, though. ;)

In other news, I’m happy to see “The Death of Captain America” up there. The first of my top 10 to take its bow!

But I acknowledge I had a pretty subpar list. I wrote it in a rush to make the deadline for submissions, and included a good few stories I wish I hadn’t, and overlooked some I really think were more deserving of a place.

At least one Hellblazer storyline should be coming, although I’m giving up hope on that since we are getting closer to the big names, but who knows…. maybe we’ll have a “Hard Time” when looking at the rest of the results.

Also, Chris, Swamp Thing: American Gothic will definitely be on the list, without a doubt. Maybe Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast (almost made my list), or some other storyline like Gothic.

Flex Mentallo, some Preacher as well.

I have high hopes for the rest of the list, the only thing I definitely gave up on is in an Invisibles arc appearing, which is clearly not going to happen at this point.

Tom Fitzpatrick

December 7, 2009 at 1:16 pm

3 Morrison out of five is definitely icing on the cake.

Tho’ Marvels could have been lower on the list.

I assume “lower” means a lower number and so higher ranking.

Hmm sorry, I read the whole playing Hearts with math experts argument after posting, so… no more guessing game for me.

Brian, I put big crossovers and events in the same bag, I didn’t think there was a distinction. Maybe that’s not your point and you meant that they are really different, which I understand. Final Crisis does interest me more than another event (putting them in the same bag) because it’s done by Morrison, but still… events as a whole don’t interest me too much at this time, although I enjoyed parts of 52.

I think Brubaker’s Captain America is a bit overrated, but these are all fine comics.

Final Crisis! I didn’t vote for it, but this is easily my favorite “event” comic, probably because its so unlike every other one. Every time I re-read it, I get more and more out of it, and although I think by FC #7, there were so many damn ideas going on it didn’t give quite the conclusion I wanted, I still think its great. Really glad its up here.

Marvels I have heard of, but of course never read it. Alex Ross is a big no-no for me.

Rock of Ages! Another one of my votes! This is the ultimate Morrison JLA story, an epic adventure across time, space, and everything in between. The JLA fight Lex Luthor and his Injustice Gang while at the same time in an alternate future, fight Darkseid who now controls the world. Its six issues of one crazy ass idea after another, and its my favorite story from probably my favorite on-going comic book run(although it wasn’t my #1 or #2 choice).

Death of Captain America! Another one of my votes! Thats the first time I’ve got two on one day(I think thats 4/10). An epic saga that showcases Brubaker’s uncanny ability to craft a years-in-the-making story. If I were to tell you that Bucky freakin’ Barnes was to come back to life as a brainwashed, cyborg assassin for the Soviet Union, you’d think I was lying. If I were to tell you that Steve Rogers was shot and killed, you’d think it was complete BS. If I told you that Bucky would go on and take up the mantle of Captain America, you’d laugh at the ridiculousness. Now what if I were to tell you it would all be SO DAMN GOOD? Completely unbelievable, and yet here it is. It combines 24-like espionage and action with good old comic book goofiness in the form of Super Nazis and Nazi scientists, and by the end of the story, you truly believe in BuckyCap. Too bad Steve is coming back, but from what Dark Avengers Annual showed, we may still be in luck!

Seven Soldiers is pretty hit and miss for me. I really liked Seven Soldiers #0/1, the Manhattan Guardian, Zatanna, and Frankenstein. I didn’t care for Mister Miracle, Klarion the Witch Boy, Bulleteer or Shining Knight). Its too bad none of these characters seemed to have been picked up by other DCU writers, but thats par the course for Morrison’s ideas. I actually voted for the prelude to this project, JLA Classified #1-3, which is another punchy, idea-filled crazy JLA adventure from Morrison, but I don’ t think it will place above Rock of Ages/New World Order.

NEW TOTALS in a minute…

For the ‘yet to come’ list, I expect Jaka’s Story to top out the Cerebus appearances very soon, and Miracleman:Olympus into the Moore column. If AGoY and tKO both made it, I can’t see Brief Lives not making the cut. Astro City:The Tarnished Angel is still possible, as is Hulk:Future Imperfect. The Great Darkness Saga seems almost inevitable, also.

It’s possible, I guess, that we’ll see something out of Giffen’s Leage and/or Ostrander’s Suicide Squad, although the difficulty of picking out a single ‘storyline’ out of those runs may have kept them out.

I’d like to see Mage or something from Grendel make it, and ditto Zot!: The Earth Stories, but the numbers game seems to be weighing against it. I’t be nice to see something truly oddball surprise us in the top fifty (like Beanworld or Gonick’s Cartoon History or anything by the Foglios or Local or Mouse Guard), but I don’t expect it…

Brian ~ Seven Soldiers also may have its point total off.

I am a math expert (my job is to be a mathematician) yet I am not great at Hearts, although I like playing it.

Santiago: Hellblazer’s best hope is probably “Dangerous Habits”. (“Hard Time”??? Really???)

Wait, how many points does Seven Soldiers have? Its says 186, which is lower than Rock of Ages/Death of Captain America.

hopefully being vague enough and not incurring Brian’s wrath:

@Jeff ~ I fear it’s too late to hope for much not from the Big Two. I voted for Zot! Earth Stories and Usagi Yojimbo: Grasscutter, but I think I’m ready to give up on them.

maybe Walking Dead (though I’d be surprised to see it beating out Y and Fables so heavily, especially as I can’t think of anything that really constitutes a storyline), maybe Miracleman (always hard to judge how much its perennial out-of-print status will affect it; in particular, I haven’t read it and thus don’t have the best feel for it), and maaaaybe a longshot chance of something from Hellboy. But mostly I think it’s time for Marvel/DC/Vertigo to dominate.

I’ve read 3 of those 5 (Final Crisis, Marvels and Death of Captain America). Captain America made my top 10 (that is the third of mine that make it, the other two were Fables: Homelands and Punisher MAX: Slavers).

I thought Final Crisis was very strange but very interesting. While reading it I had to re-read previous issues again and I want to read it all together again. It seems like there’s a lot I missed in the first reading. I would also like to read Final Crisis: Superman Beyond. It seems that to get more out of Final Crisis #7 one needs to read that one. I didn’t quite like Final Crisis, but it was interesting enough to make me want to give it another shot, plus I thought the interviews with Morrison were awesome.

Marvels is a comic I love, specially the art. But I think Busiek does a very nice job of writing the Marvel history through the eyes of a normal person. I have also been enjoying the sequel Marvels: Eye of the Camera. I really liked the five issues so far and hopefully the sixth one will be good enough to be worth the six month wait.

Death of Captain America is fantastic and it was the reason I started reading more Brubaker. I am very happy for that as Brubaker has a lot of great things: Sleeper, Criminal, Incognito and his Daredevil run also has great moments (my favorite storylines are “Devil Inside Out and Return of the Kingpin”).

Yeah I know Dangerous Habits is the safest bet, and It will probably appear on this list it certainly has more chances than Hard Time, I just think that DH is overrated. I mean, I really enjoyed it when I read it while being 15 years old, but at 25? not so much, if I have to pick something from Ennis run I probably would pick Rake at the Gates of Hell.

Regarding Hard Time, I really enjoyed it. Corben’s art doesn’t hurt one bit, also. It could be that I hadn’t been reading Hellblazer for some time, and then I picked up that TP, and I’ve read it several times over the years since it came out.

HellBlazer: All His Engines is a pretty good Hellblazer story. Also Invincible could be up there. I like Invincible more than Walking Dead.

Re Hard Time: During Azarello’s entire run, the stories were fairly good, but they just couldn’t connect, for me, with the characterization and universe of John Constantine that I know.

A big part is probably the setting. There aren’t very many good John Constantine stories set in America. American Gothic and Veitch’s first year in Swamp Thing, and that’s it.

Hey, the first post in quite a while to actually improve my “read” percentage; I’ve got 3 of 5. That ups me to 21 of 55 (38%).

“Final Crisis” – not read it, waiting for DC to release the damn paperback (they take for fucking ever with those).

“Marvels” – read it, good stuff; I don’t think Ross’ art (still in its developmental stage here) fits Marvel characters as much as DC, but it looks great for the most part. The bit with the little mutant girl is one of the saddest things I’ve ever read in any medium.

“Rock of Ages” – read it, enjoyed it, find it severely overrated; one of those stories where I just don’t feel Morrison is giving the whole story he has in his head.

“The Death of Captain America” – my #1 vote! (it looks like my #2 is going to place higher than my #1) Love, love, love it. Brubaker’s masterwork in terms of pacing the whole thing out and making it work.

“Seven Soldiers” – not read it.

Oh, and now 3 of my 10 have placed on the list (my #1, #4, and #9); I expect to see my #2 here, but otherwise I’m guessing that’ll be it.

NEW TOTALS:

Interesting notes – The God of All Comics looks down from his throne as the first comic writer to surpass one thousand points, and has more points than the writers in second and third combined. The 2000s regain its top position over the 90s.

-19 of these stories are Marvel ones

-25 of these stories are DC ones(13 from DC, 9 from Vertigo, 3 from Wildstorm)

-38 of these are superhero stories
-17 of these are non-superhero stories

-2000s(23 entries, 3218 points)
-1990s(21 entries, 3074 points)
-1980s(7 entries, 874 points)
-1970s(4 entries, 513 points)

By Writer:

-Morrison (7 entries, 1168 points)
-Brubaker (4 entries, 564 points)
-Ellis (4 entries, 563 points)
-Busiek (3 entries, 537 points)
-Stern (3 entries, 520 points)
-Moore (4 entries, 495 points)
-Bendis (3 entries, 381 points)
-L. Simonson (2 entries, 348 points)
-Jurgens (2 entries, 348 points)
-Ordway (2 entries, 348 points)
-Gaiman (2 entries, 312 points)
-Vaughan (2 entries, 295 points)
-Willingham (2 entries, 234 points)
-Buckingham (2 entries, 234 points)
-Sim (2 entries, 220 points)
-Ennis (2 entries, 208 points)
-David (1 entry, 179 points)
-Kessel (1 entry, 167 points)
-Jones (1 entry, 167 points)
-Pak(1 entry, 165 points)
-Miller (1 entry, 162 points)
-Rucka(1 entry, 160 points)
-Grayson(1 entry, 160 points)
-Robinson (1 entry, 142 points)
-Dixon (1 entry, 142 points)
-Moenech (1 entry, 142 points)
-Aparo (1 entry, 142 points)
-Shooter (1 entry, 141 points)
-Stern (1 entry, 141 points)
-Michelinie (1 entry, 141 points)
-JMS (1 entry, 140 points)
-Starlin (1 entry, 140 points)
-Javier Grillo-Marxuach (1 entry, 131 points)
-D’n’A (1 entry, 131 points)
-Furman (1 entry, 131 points)
-Keith Grifen (1 entry, 131 points)
-Thomas (1 entry, 127 points)
-Fraction (1 entry, 115 points)
-J. Hernandez (1 entry, 110 points)
-Windsor-Smith (1 entry, 106 points)
-O’Neil (1 entry, 105 points)
-G. Hernandez (1 entry, 102 points)
-Smith (1 entry, 102 points)
-Ware (1 entry, 100 points)
-Rosa (1 entry, 100 points)

It’s ridiculous how many of the top 100 stories EVER have come out in the past five years.

It’s ridiculous how many of the top 100 stories EVER have come out in the past five years.

But that’s going to be true of any “best of” lists. The newer stories may not end up surviving the test of time, but they’re more recent in memory, and they’re part of a smaller pool to choose from for younger readers.

That’s the reason December is called “Oscar Season” for movies. When the call for nominations goes out in January, movies released in December are going to be clearer in memory than ones released the previous March.

^I know, what a great decade we must live in.

I really enjoyed Hard Times, too, and I remember it had a pretty excellent critical reception at the time it was coming out in serial form. But I guess it’s possible the perception of the storyline could have changed. The Corbin are was excellent, and it was a nice change of pace and an interesting idea to put Constantine in that situation. Plus the Tim Bradstreet covers! I have a hard time hating on a comic that features such beautiful Bradstreet covers.

I’m kinda getting burnt out on alla the Morrison. I know he’s popular and everything, and I enjoy a lot of his non-DC/Marvel work, but Final Crisis? R.I.P.? Ugh. I know all the Morrison-ites will just assume that I “just don’t get it” or I’m “some fanboy who has to be beaten over the head by the story” or something, but those stories were a real slog to get through, not fun at all. Even his JLA, which should be pure fun, I find myself checking my watch on a regular basis, metaphorically speaking. But to each his own, I guess, and I can’t argue with the mob.

It does seem like more than a few Morrison fans must have submitted ballots that consisted of little other than his work. Which, fair enough, I suppose, though I tried to avoid letting a single writer dominate my list like that.

Chris – Good list/guesses.

I would add in:
Mark Millar’s Old Man Logan
Grant Morrison’s New X-Men: E is for Extinction
Geoff John’s Sinestro Corps War
Joss Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men: Gifted (which I totally forgot to vote for)

I would also add in 4 more X-Title storylines/events:
Inferno
X-Tinction Agenda
The Cross-Time Caper (this was limited to the Excalibur title is I remember correctly)
Age of Apocalypse (which I also didn’t vote for)

Also 2 Warren Ellis stories that belong here but not sure if they have a place in this list:

FreakAngels (Can a web comic series be included? And if so, there are no clearly defined start or end points for the stories, so how would this work?)

Doktor Sleepless (story isn’t finished yet but what I’ve read up to now is so far above and beyond anything being released today that it deserves at least some kind of honorable mention here)

I would also say the same for Mark Waid’s Irredeemable. The story isn’t close to finished yet but what I’ve read so far is blowing away anything released by “the big two” by a long shot!!

I’m no math expert, and I can’t be bothered to count cards (unless I’m trying to shoot the moon — a very delicate, nerve-jangling dance). But I love to play Hearts, and part of the fun of the game (and indeed, some of the strategy) is trying to figure out who’s got the dreaded Queen of Spades. So I imagine, for some of the posters here, trying to figure out what’s left — and, more exactly, where it might rank — is part of the fun of following along with the results.

For my part: I do expect “Judas Contract” to make the cut. And I’d be a little sad (though not too surprised I guess) if “Hush” and “Identity Crisis” do.

These Morrisonites have indeed been a dominant force thus far. And will likely continue to be in the entries to come.

Where are all the Moorites? Their influence seems to have waned, but I guess we shall still see.

I wonder if the Ellisites have had their say in the list already and are done?

I would think of myself as a Moorite, except my voting doesn’t reflect that. I gave but 2 points to only a single Moore story not likely to make the list anyway.

Regarding Moore fans, he’s got a number of big-ticket items yet to come (including what will, in all likelihood, be the #1 story).

Ellis, I think, has pretty much his his expected notes by now.

‘Where are all the Moorites? Their influence seems to have waned, but I guess we shall still see.”

I will be surprised if Watchmen doesn’t make the top slot. I’ll be downright shocked if it doesn’t break the top five.

Something I noticed about the list as a whole: there’s not, so far, a huge point-difference among these entries. #100 got 90 points, #46 got 190. That’s not a huge spread. In this entry alone there’s only six points separating the #50 from the #46.

I know all the Morrison-ites will just assume that I “just don’t get it” or I’m “some fanboy who has to be beaten over the head by the story” or something, but those stories were a real slog to get through, not fun at all.

Yeah, it’s awful when people make assumptions about what other people are thinki…oh, wait….

i haven’t yet read final crisis or death of captain america as both ended fairly recently and i never read anything until it’s done with. but both have been on my list for a while and i’ll be getting to them soon.

seven soldiers is probably placed in the right spot–mid list–as it’s very good, but shy of masterpiece.

jla: rock of ages i greatly enjoyed (as i did morrison’s entire jla run), but thought it was only the fourth best storyline of the run, behind new world order (which i voted for), the prometheus story (prometheus one-shot and jla 16-17), and the azmodel/angels battle of jla 6-7. but as the latter two stories don’t really have names, i don’t think we’ll be seeing them. whether it’s conscious or unconscious, i don’t think many people voted for any storylines that have never been given proper names (which is why i don’t think we’ll be seeing any giffen/dematteis justice league, any suicide squad, any spectre, etc.)

marvels- wow! i’m completely shocked at it’s placing. i thought it was a mortal lock for the top 25, and maybe even a longshot for the top ten. so is the problem that people don’t like it as much as they used to? or is the problem that unlike watchmen/sandman/dark knight, no younger readers have actually read it? from the comments above, it seems that a surprising number of people haven’t read it. i have to say, i think it still holds up quite well, and it’s difficult to quantify how new and fresh it seemed in the mid 90s. the narrative viewpoint it showcased had NEVER been done before, and for the rest of the decade, it was an often copied storytelling technique. the whole thing was like seeing an in-continuity documentary on the history of the marvel universe, except lavishly painted. for anyone that hasn’t read it, i can’t recommend it highly enough. there’s a good chance any decent local library will have it, so do yourself a favor and give it a cost-free read.

a few questions…

where’s geoff johns? i’m not saying i love or hate him, just surprised he’s been absent so far. i expect green lantern: rebirth will be showing up, and probably infinite crisis… is that it?

does anyone think we’ll be seeing any more starman? that was my favorite series of the 90s, but i didn’t vote for any because no storyline particularly stands out for me.

preacher? same case as starman for me. i once thought we’d see a lot of preacher, but now i wonder if we’ll even see 2. alamo? salvation? all in the family? gone to texas? which will place highest?

will anything from the lee/kirby/ditko canon make it? i’m starting to think no. the ridiculous amount of support for things from the last 2-3 years has made me believe that nothing from the 60s stands a chance.

Oh, I’m sure Watchmen will be #1 and Moore has a few others left to come. But he’s trailing Morrison by three entries already and Morrison has a few entries still to come himself. I would bet he has lost this one. Certainly Morrison will win on entries, maybe points totals will still be an exciting race.

@daniel~ As I said earlier, I’m also surprised and saddened by Marvels poor showing. I thought it was a well-regarded classic. Got my #2 vote.

I think you’re onto something with named stories. I suspect the stories that have names (either given at the time are later) are easier to remember and stand out in people’s heads. I think this list does reflect that skewing based on psychology. (I see 8 of my 10 votes are stories I have a name for).

Whereas I think it’s a bit harder mentally to come up with that one time where the FF fought Doom and it was really awesome but I forget the issues and…

Kirby & Ditko? I suspect we’ll see at least one and at most two from that era.

3 of my 10 finally show up! Awesome!

@Brian Cronin: Yeah, I may have been overgeneralizing, but at least one poster has put down segments of the reading populace for not liking it as;

“certain fanboy circles for not being Generic Superhero Crossover Event 101 and actually trying to go outside the box and try something different”

I draw on personal experience as well. Sorry, most anything-ites tend to dismiss anyone who doesn’t like what they like with snide kiss-offs like that, as if there’s no valid reason not to like something.

But anecdotal evidence translates better to the word “some” than the word “most”, CW.

Apologies for the generalzation, again. I’ll watch my semantics in the future :)

where’s geoff johns? i’m not saying i love or hate him, just surprised he’s been absent so far. i expect green lantern: rebirth will be showing up, and probably infinite crisis… is that it?

I’d be shocked if Sinestro Corps War doesn’t appear, and it’s likely to be Johns top hit. Blackest Night has an outside chance of showing up, depending on how many people are willing to vote for a story line at the half way mark.

“I can’t believe it’s still not the Justice League” strikes me as a sleeper contender, as I think that would be the most popular JLI story line (for loose definitions of JLI.)

Wow, I can’t believe Final Crisis made it. To me the series was just random picture here and there with no connection to one another. The action was sometimes just explained in the captions. Of course to be fair I didn’t get the Batman and Superman tie-ins. At the time I didn’t know that they were related so closely to the main book. It’s nice now with Blackest Night the editors tell you at the beginning of the issue were in relation the issue fall chronologically.

“i expect green lantern: rebirth will be showing up, and probably infinite crisis… is that it? ”

I don’t expect to see either of those, especially the latter; I suspect the votes for Johns’ “Green Lantern” will go to “Sinestro Corps War”, which definitely will be on the list.

On a positive note, I’m glad to see Marvels on the list. Makes me wonder if we’re going to be seeing Ross’ other prestige format miniseries smash hit, Kingdom Come. I prefer Marvel’s more personal storyline, but it’s hard to deny KC’s bombast is pretty thrilling.

Suprised, but probably shouldn’t be, at how high Death of Captain America made it. I know Bru’s Cap is popular, but it’s so new! I like the series a lot, but I definately haven’t had the time to fully digest the whole thing, and in a way, we’re still in the middle of it, aren’t we? Steve still hasn’t made a triumphant return, and I can’t really see there being true closure to the story until that happens.

Interesting day.

I am not a big fan of Final Crisis. As it was coming out I felt it was very choppy. Some of the transitions were too abrupt. The hardcover collection was a better read for me. I think the Superman issues helped tie it together more. But it does need more than one reading to really sink in. And knowing the kinda things Morrison like to play around with (and what he was doing in Seven Soldiers) helps. I have a friend who read this and it was the first thing by Morrison that he’d ever read and he hated it. Which made me sad. Because Morrison has done lots of way cooler stuff than this.

Marvels was very, very cool back in the day. I don’t know that it’s something I would like as much today, but at the time it was quite neat. I think Kingdom Come is more my Alex Ross mega-event.

I hope we’re not gonna see every Morrison JLA storyline here. I really dug Morrison’s JLA, but I think I liked it more as a complete thing.

I don’t give a wet slap about the Captain America death bs. it’s such blatant eventism that it annoys me beyond words. If there’s one gripe I have about the Bendis-Quesada era of Marvel it’s the big-huge-change stories that are so calculated they make my teeth hurt. (And before anyone says it- I know Bendis didn’t write the Temporary Death of Captain America. I just call this era of Marvel the Bendis-Quesada era.)

Seven Soldiers was a very mixed bag for me. I loved two of the series (Frankenstein and Klarion), liked four of the series (Zatanna, Manhattan Guardian, Shining Knight, and Mister Miracle) and hated one of the series (Bulleteer). The first bookend was good. The second bookend didn’t do much for me. But, boy, that Frankenstein book was fun!

I’m interested to see how the rest of the countdown plays out. I’ve seen several of my list here (including my number one- the Death of Speedy Ortiz-yay!) and hope to see several more of my favorites before it’s over.

Another 5 for 5 bringing my total to 43.

Again, if I had voted Rock of Ages would have made my list most likely. Possibly Marvels.

Does Nova Volume 1 #11 when he fights the Sphinx count as a storyline cuz that probably would have won for me. I read that comic as a kid until it disintegrated in my hands.

CW,

I was the one who wrote the “snide kiss-off” you quoted earlier, and stand by it. First, I didn’t generalise that ALL people who hated those books did so for those reasons, I did say “certain fanboy circles”. Yes, I’m sure there are people who read the story, comprehended it fully, and decided it wasn’t to their tastes. But if you haven’t read the comments to be found in just about any sizeable Final Crisis/Batman RIP thread that go something like, “This is so confusing, it’s just gibberish, it makes no sense, where does this fit in on the timeline for this chronology spreadsheet I’m assembling, wait why are there no STATUS QUO CHANGES~! yet this is supposed to be a crossover event and crossover event rules dictate that plot point A, B and C should have happened by now, this is all gobbledy gook, there are pictures on the page and words in bubbles and I can’t connect them, I DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!”, then you obviously haven’t been looking in very many Final Crisis/Batman RIP threads. People made both events out to be much more confusing and dependant on heaving piles of extracurricular reading than they actually were. Everything you needed to understand them was there on the page. So when SOME people were acting like they’d been given “INLAND EMPIRE” to watch, I could only conclude that they had forgotten how to read a comic book, or were having some kind of breakdown because Morrison was experimenting with some unconventional perspectives on established story mechanics rather than trotting out the same old beats that have become so familiar and comforting.

If you were insulted by my comment, and thought I was making a sweeping remark about all people who disliked the books, I apologise. But I think it’s just as much of a sweeping assumption to make by proposing that Morrison books are only doing so well in this Top 100 because all the “Morrison-ites” got together and formed this grand conspiracy to have him flood the list. Are we Morrison fans like the Legion of Doom? Do we have some secret cave or underwater fortress that we hold secret meetings in to talk about mind-altering drugs and breaking the fourth wall?

I think that’s the general key – just don’t make assumptions about other people, period.

If you want to knock Final Crisis, knock it. If you want to praise Final Crisis, praise it. If you want to argue with the people who knock it, cool. If you want to argue with the people who praise it, cool.

But keep it to discussing Final Crisis, not your assumptions about the fans/non-fans.

That’s not to say that you have to be lovey-dovey with each other, of course. If you think someone said something dumb, feel free to call them on it.

I sincerely hope that Green Lantern: Rebirth doesn´t make the list. I obviously have nothing against the people that like it, I wouldn´t get in an argument trying to change people´s minds about it, but I just think that it´s crap. I´m speaking about the writing and everything that went behind it, I have nothing against the art.

But that´s me, I don´t mean that no one should like it, I just think that it´s so bad that it hurt my soul a bit.

Well maybe not so much, but I wanted to be dramatic.

@Chad: I also thought the death of cap was just an event and that it had no meaning, but I think the story is very well told. Brian wrote an essay about how superhero comics always tend to the mean and we all knew that Steve Rogers would come back when we read that story, but it doesn’t mean the story is bad just because of that. Almost all comics from DC and Marvel have stories that only have the illusion of change but they revert to the mean later on. Dissing Death of Cap for this reason is almost like dissing every superhero comic written by DC/Marvel. If you read it and thought it was boring, then that would be a good reason to dislike it.

JokerSoze: You’re right, I don’t follow endless threads about Final Crisis. In general, I if I don’t like something and it’s not offensive in such a way to really make me mad, I don’t go out of my way to spend all that much time on it. I found it to be a chore to read through, it wasn’t much fun or enlightening. I’m sure there’s people out there that spend their time actively hating Morrison work, just like there are people actively evangelizing it as well. That is the way the internets work, after all (serious business!) But I think both parties probably have a point and for all the finger pointing and psydo-intelectual debate, it really comes down to personal taste, just like all art that isn’t out-and-out terrible.

I have more experience with R.I.P. as I own the hardcover and have read it more than once. My personal opinion is that it doesn’t read much like a Batman comic and is way too heavy handed in it’s themes and ideas. There’s not a lot of moments that feel like they really have anything to do with the real characters, a lot of the converstations are too focused on if Bruce is crazy or imagining stuff, and there’s way too much philosophising durring the action. The villians are pretty lame, the Black Hand is an interesting idea, but we never find enough about any single character in it to make them work. The whole “is he? isn’t he?” Dr. Hurt deal was pretty lame and muddy, too. For the most part, it wasn’t too disjointed, except for the last few chapters in the trade, but that was pretty obviously intentional. A few more thoughts when I get home….

Thanks JokerSoze, it needed to be said.

I just picked up Final Crisis today, so i will be able to have my own opinion of it.

Marvels? Not a fan of Ross, I find that the large majority of the stuff he does is self-righteous and arrogant. Also, a while ago I bought and read Kingdom Come. I thought this was supposed to be good so a few days later I read it again. Hm, still not good. Why would I go by Marvels? (For some reasons I enjoyed Justice, go figure (maybe I actually would enjoy Marvels? the risk of me not liking it is not worth the price. (by the way, a hardcover Marvels was RIGHT NEXT to the Final Crisis I bought and by some crazy coincidence they’re on the list the same day!! blows my mind, life is fantastic))

JLA was enjoyable. Definetly not Morrison’s best. Man, this guys is not even close to done on this list. He will be at the top of Jeremy’s stats list when this is done.

Death of Cap. Someone important died … AND IT WAS GOOD!! :O Way to go Brubaker

I NEED TO GO READ SEVEN SOLDIERS!! I’ve got every other Morrison book (now that i have Final Crisis). Hell, i even have Sebastien O and Vimanaram (oh Philip Bond). When will we see Seaguy?

Read (will read) 3 on today’s list

“Do we have some secret cave or underwater fortress that we hold secret meetings in to talk about mind-altering drugs and breaking the fourth wall?”

Yep. Its called Barbelith >_>

Although I don’t go there.

Ok, to all those out there who disliked Morrison’s work. What is it your hate so much? The stories have depth? The story has layers? Its completely fine if you don’t like that sort of thing and enjoy a more straighfoward this is the villain go beat him up stories. If thats the case STOP READING MORRISON!! His style isn’t going to chance, especially since he’s able to get readers who won’t even like his stuff to read his books. The man sells comics. If you don’t like different characterization of your favourite caracters go read something else. Hell, there’s a writer at DC (Johns) who specializes in ‘making the old new again’ and from what i’ve read, he’ll never confuse you pretty little heads.
Morrison isn’t a miracle worker, he’s written some bad stuff too, i’ll admit that, (JLA anyone? just kidding, i’m one of the few who didn’t ravish his JLA stuff) but like most writer he has a certain style and if that style doesn,t suit your liking no matter what title he writes you’re not going to have a good time. Why do i like him? Because he does DIFFERENT stuff. Who else has written a Batman like Morrison’s? NO ONE! Who else has written Superman like he has? NO ONE! (I don’t even like Superman and All Star Superman was good!) If different isn’t to your liking DON’T GO FREAKIN’ READ/BUY IT!!
I understand that people have different tastes and very varied opinions on what is considered good or enjoyable, but if you don’t like Morrison’s style stop reading his stuff cus you’re just going to whine about it later and it’s pissing me off.

Morrison has at least one more story that’s gonna chart, that being All-Star Superman. Brubaker is debatable, but you never know. We’ve yet to see any Criminal, and with the newness of some of these arcs, I wouldn’t discount Incognito yet. Sadly, I doubt Ellis has anything else that will chart. Maybe something from StormWatch. Shame, since a lot of his work that’s already charted was way too low. Who knows? Maybe CBR will surprise me and we’ll get some more Transmet. (If anything, my money’s on Lonely City.)

Ennis is sure to have a few more hits, considering the lack of Preacher and Hellblazer so far. Moore will dominate this once we hit the top 20. Miller and Gaiman too.

The Crazed Spruce

December 7, 2009 at 5:22 pm

I haven’t read Final Crisis or the Death of Captain America, but I definitely intend to someday.

I’m still kicking myself for not including Marvels on my short list.

I wasn’t very impressed with Seven Soldiers, I have to admit. I liked most of the stories individually (some more than others), but the bookends just seemed kinda… blah. Didn’t really work for me.

And judging from the comments, I just may have confused “Rock of Ages” with another JLA story, which I did vote for. I’m not recinding my vote or anything, though, because the one I did wind up voting for is pretty damn epic in its own right. Still….

(And yes, in case you care, I still haven’t cracked my Top 10….)

Ok, to all those out there who disliked Morrison’s work. What is it your hate so much?

I recognize that Morrison’s work have multiple layers. I just don’t think those multiple layers are executed particular well in certain of his works and FC in particular.

There are part of FC that work well (Morrison probably did the best job of any DC writer of handling the BC/GA relationship in the last 3-4 years, and I like the idea that the DCU is fundamentally an optimistic place where one can wish for a happy ending and it will come true because you wished for it.) But the pacing is choppy for not particularly good reasons, there are a couple plot points that just don’t work for me (the Tattooed Man’s behavior, any time spent with Super Young Team or GPA, and the reveal of Libra.)

Oh, and there’s at least three separate issues in FC involving Morrison being careless about math/science. (Most of them can and will be ignored by those unaware of the science, since Morrison is playing the art card to justify those moments and there is a useful surface reading. But it’s irritating that it’s misleading if you actually know what he’s talking about.)

Darn, it looks less and less likely that Whatever Happened to Scorpio, Nexus 5-8, and all the other goodies from my list will make it. At least a bunch of Morrison books are appearing here. Also, although I didn’t vote for any of his stuff at the time, where’s the Peter Milligan?!?

Anyway, I’m calling this one a Morrison win in terms of entry numbers. I expect Moore to win based only on point values from Watchmen.

Some of the things people are listing as likely to come up in the top 45 make me kind of sad, especially the idea of them ranking above the better stuff listed so far. Especially Inferno, X-Tinction Agenda, Fall of the Mutants and Mutant Massacre. Those were all fucking terrible.
Final Crisis wasn’t Morrison’s all-time greatest, but it deserved to rank, and was definitely vastly superior to Infinite Crisis, the thought of which coming ahead of FC is kind of gross.
I guess there’s no chance of Headmen/Nebulon/Bozos (Defenders) showing up at this point, blast it…

“Oh, and there’s at least three separate issues in FC involving Morrison being careless about math/science.”

In a comic book?!? (Fans self, eyelids begin to flutter) I do declare I feel faint!

I had to get home from work, so I had to cut my post short. Kinda got into a rant in there about what I disliked about R.I.P. that I didn’t mean to and ran long. Long story short; R.I.P. is my least favorite arc of Morrison’s Batman. I liked the majority of the rest of it.

I just wanted to respond to the “League of Evil Morrison Fans” comment. I don’t think anyone’s proposing some kind of grand (might I say Morrison-esque? :P) conspiracy regarding the number of Morrison books on the list. Obviously, he’s a popular writer. Both on this site and off. And this blog is generally very pro-Morrison, anyway. The “logo” is a Morrison character, for cripes sake! So I don’t think anyone should be super surprised by the large number of Morrison books. I think today was just especially egregious :) .

“Ok, to all those out there who disliked Morrison’s work. What is it your hate so much? The stories have depth? The story has layers? Its completely fine if you don’t like that sort of thing and enjoy a more straighfoward this is the villain go beat him up stories. If thats the case STOP READING MORRISON!! His style isn’t going to chance, especially since he’s able to get readers who won’t even like his stuff to read his books. The man sells comics. If you don’t like different characterization of your favourite caracters go read something else. Hell, there’s a writer at DC (Johns) who specializes in ‘making the old new again’ and from what i’ve read, he’ll never confuse you pretty little heads.”

Not cool, man. Don’t act like being a fan of Morrison makes one’s tastes more sophisticated or urbane than one who doesn’t. It’s elitist, and not at all constructive for intelligent discussion. (And I’m someone who loved Morrison’s run on Batman.)

It’s entirely possible to understand the depths the author is putting into their story, and still dislike it for any number of reasons. I understand what Alan Moore was doing with Watchmen. I hate Watchmen. These things happen.

“Don’t act like being a fan of Morrison makes one’s tastes more sophisticated or urbane than one who doesn’t. It’s elitist, and not at all constructive for intelligent discussion.”

Do we also get a moratorium on the Morrison-haters setting themselves up as the cool Emperor-has-no-clothes-shouters who are somehow more “real” and unpretentious in their brave, salt-of-the-Earth stand against the great Morrisonian conspiracy of people who are “obviously” just trying to look sophisticated in return? Because that would be nice.

I don’t know if anymore Doom Patrol will show up, but I know Animal Man Deus Ex Machina is probably gonna be here. All-Star Superman is a guarantee. The Invisibles perhaps?

JN,

Well, in a perfect world, we’d be discussing these works and artists on their individual merits, instead of making broad, sweeping generalizations either way.

Once again, I haven’t read any of these. (But at least now I have read a couple of things on the list. That makes me feel better somewhat.)
Since there seems to be a lot of predictions going on, I think there is a near certainty of two more stories I’ve read making this list– Watchmen and Dark Phoenix. Aside from those, though, I’m not so sure. I think there may still be a chance of three more from my own list appearing– Under Siege, Trial of Pym, and Stark Wars, aka Armor Wars. But I wouldn’t bet any money on them.

Because of this list, I picked up “Death of Speedy” from the library this week and I read it today. Really good stuff. I guess the trade collected has extra issues, so I mistakenly thought that there was more to the story than there was, but even the extra issues were pretty fun. I like Maggie a lot and I was very curious to see if there would be a Maggie-Hopey reunion. After reading this it made me want to read more Love and Rockets.

To those that have read Death of Speedy, what do you think of the Spanish words in the middle of the dialogue? To me it sounded like people I’ve met because I grew up in Juárez a bordertown (with El Paso, Texas), hence I’ve met many people that speak English with Spanish put in the middle and since I am mexican I also know the slang very well. It is interesting to me to find out if people get the references to different Mexican culture, i.e. Cantinflas. To see if people know what tia means or why Hopey is her nickname (her name is Esperanza which means hope).

In a comic book?!? (Fans self, eyelids begin to flutter) I do declare I feel faint!

Comic book fans want to have their cake and eat it too. On one hand, we want comic books–even super-hero comics–to be treated equally to other forms of literature. And yet when a writer commits plot or logic flaws, we say, “It’s just a comic book, man. Get over it.”

If we want comic books to be taken seriously (and I’m not saying we should), then we can’t just roll over when basic errors in storytelling are made. I’m not going to list what I think are examples because the discussion will just devolve into arguing over minutiae. And I’m not saying that Morrison is especially prone to making mistakes, but when someone brings an argument that errors in comic books should be forgiven because they’re “just comic books,” it does a disservice to the writers, the readers, and the medium as a whole.

I think Final Crisis and RIP are the only things to have come up from my list thus far.

That said, I may very well be wrong.

The list continues to be interesting.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

December 7, 2009 at 6:56 pm

It is pretty clear that the issues written by Morrison are necessary, everything else is ancillary.

And that’s going beyond his name being on them – if you did a test with someone reading all of it without knowing who wrote what, they’d still only pick the Morrison issues as being necessary.

I liked the first couple arcs of Astro City. But between muddy art and a never-changing bittersweet mood, it got repetitive and dull quickly.

Did you read the Tarnished Angel arc of the series – featuring the character Steel Jack?

It’s pretty darn good – although it is a little Bittersweet.

Haven’t (and probably won’t) read Final Crisis

Why do you hate comics?

FunkyGreenJerusalem

December 7, 2009 at 6:58 pm

It’s entirely possible to understand the depths the author is putting into their story, and still dislike it for any number of reasons. I understand what Alan Moore was doing with Watchmen. I hate Watchmen. These things happen.

You’d be amazed though at how many threads on DC boards (and on the X-Men ones for a while) there are with people saying they dislike his work and that they are an intelligent reader etc, who then go on to show that they didn’t understand the first thing about his work – and not even the ‘layers’, but what is actually happening on the page – yet get angry at people for being ‘elitist’ who try and explain what happened.

“Final Crisis” – Despite all the grumbling surrounding it’s placement/very presence I’m still excited to read it once the TPB shows up used somewhere. Okay, I’m not going to risk paying full-price or even shipping on a used copy so maybe that wasn’t the right word…

“Marvels” – It’s fine and one of the few bright spots of 90s Marvel, which has to count for something…

“Death Of Captain America” – I’m surprised this placed so much higher than “Winter Soldier”! I hope either part 2 or 3 of the “Death Of” trilogy beats this on the list. Ed’s Cap run is at his best when Bucky’s behind the shield! I still remember that one scene early on where Bucky, in the heat of battle and having trouble with the shield thinks, “I might have to shoot this guy!” I have no idea why I still carry that around in my head, but it just seemed so damn cool in that moment of comic reading rhythm…

I would agree with you if it were dramatic or artistic errors being complained about, Wesley, but the complaint was specifically about “math/science” in a milieu where violations of basic physics are taken as a given, and that was what I was mocking, not “plot or logic flaws” (which I interpret as violations of self-consistency, not necessarily being scientifically unrealistic in real world terms) or “errors in storytelling,” so don’t lay that “oh, those darn fan attitudes” crap at my feet..

@ Wesley Smith

“If we want comic books to be taken seriously (and I’m not saying we should), then we can’t just roll over when basic errors in storytelling are made. I’m not going to list what I think are examples because the discussion will just devolve into arguing over minutiae.”

I don’t know, man. It’d be one fun “player-hater’s ball” if Brian compiled “50 Worst Continuity Lapses/Retcons” countdown…

@Joshua Nelson

I don’t think more Cap will appear. There’s not much going on after issue 42. There’s a story where Bucky fights a French villain (being backed by a Chinese scientist) and then there’s a few issues leading to Captain America Reborn.

The issues listed already have Bucky as Cap. I actually think of the first 42 issues as the same storyline as from the very beginning the story leads to issue 42. The story of Captain America’s death, how he will be replaced and dealing with the villains behind the act is the main plot behind those 42 issues. However, because the return of Bucky was a main theme at the beginning and his death a main theme in the second half, I expected it to be divided in two parts so I just voted for the second part.

so don’t lay that “oh, those darn fan attitudes” crap at my feet..

Okay.

What kind of crap would you like lain at your feet?

(Ba-DUM-Ching! Thank you, I’ll be here all week.)

I know what you’re saying, but unless you know the errors we’re talking about (and I don’t t know the specific ones E. Wilson was citing), how do you know whether they were or weren’t important or even crucial to the story?

I was using your post to illustrate a particular gripe I have with the fan community in general, wherein we demand that our heroes be ever more serious, but a writer telling a serious story makes a logic mistake, we’re just supposed to let it slide because it’s “just comics.”

“I don’t think more Cap will appear.”

And really, 2 arcs is more than us Ed fan’s could’ve asked for. I actually haven’t read past the 3rd arc of the “Death Trilogy” and have somehow been able to elude myself of any plot details for “Reborn”. On either, Good, Bad, Treading Water (no spoilers, just an opinion)?

Good, Joshua. Very good.

Joshua: #43-48 was a pretty damn fun batch. Its two 3-issue arcs that do tell one storyline. Its great seeing BuckyCap do his thing, and I thought this was gonna be a start of a longer career. Still, although its inevitable that Steve is coming back, I don’t think Bucky is ditching his badass costume(which is SO much cooler than Steves). Reborn has picked up with the last couple of issues, and these next two issues seem pretty crazy.

To those saying they haven’t read Final Crisis, I recommend reading the first five issues and Superman Beyond and then lighting the hardcover on fire and writing your own ending. You’ll be much happier that way, trust me.

Get off your psuedo-intellectual high horse, Mario. Just because someone dislikes something Morrison has written, it doesn’t mean they don’t understand it. Your comment is no better than someone who says you only like Final Crisis because it’s written by Morrison, not because it’s any good. People have been bitching about entries on this countdown every day, why should Morrison get a pass? Were you pissed when people complained about House of M showing up?

Enrique, did you just refer to the story arc where Bucky Cap fights Batroc as “not much going on?”

It’s like we’re reading two different titles altogether.

I didn’t like Cap #43-48 that much. In fact, I din’t like it enough to order the next trade (although to be fair price is an issue as Marvel is charging $19.99 for three issues, 49, 600 and 601).
Having Bucky as Cap is cool but I just didn’t like the enemies that much.

Cass – Why wouldn’t you read FC #6 and 7? Hell, number 6 is the best issue. Darkseid vs Batman! Frankenstein ownage! Supergirl vs Mary Marvel! Jetpack tigers!

And Batroc is awesome. LOVE his new outfit he got too.

And to be fair to Mario, there are definitely some people who flat out DON’T get a lot of Morrison’s work. Like…thats the complaint they use. “It was too confusing/what happen here/it wasn’t explained well”, etc. And then when someone tries to explain, someone says “Wow, if you need all that to understand the story, then its not any good!” or whatever. Now I understand that Morrison isn’t going to be for everyone, and I know theres perfectly intelligent people who don’t like his work. I don’t just go around calling people idiots for not liking his books.

“I was using your post to illustrate a particular gripe I have with the fan community in general”

I realize that, and it’s precisely that that I was objecting to.

Oh, and it was Thok, not E. Wilson, and he specifically cited them as “math/science” errors, not inconsistent internal fake science logic. Also, I’m annoyed that I’m defending my offhand joke response and not the comment I was more interested in getting into arguments about.

Good bye creator owned comics.

Hello corporate superheroes.

However, to be fair seven soldiers reads like a creator owned series. Morrison did fine work on this one. However it is obvious that it is actually 7 DIFFERENT storylines that all converge into one. I guess people count it because it was packaged into trades as 7S Volumes, 1,2,3,4. But doesn’t it matter that they were originally published as 7 different miniseries?

I like much of Morrison’s work (Animal Man and We3 especially, but Doom Patrol as well), but I hated Final Crisis. It had its moments-I loved the Tawky Tawny versus Kalibak tiger battle in issue 6 (with the Kamandi tigers bowing to the winner) and Black Adam’s acceptance of Freddie’s invitation to rejoin the Marvel Family to battle against Darkeid’s forces. I will admit that Final Crisis was tainted for me from the beginning for reasons partially outside the book: the multiple deaths of Orion in Death of the New Gods, Countdown, and Final Crisis itself and DC’s cavalier attitude about them. I freely accept retcons as part of the cost of doing the business of reading comics, but I really don’t care for a “retcon” of something I read last month

$20 for 3 issues is ridiculous. I don’t blame you for not ordering the next trade. And to be honest, 600 and 601 are a bit of filler issues in my opinion, anyways. But I loved the Batroc issues, and pretty much all the issues before that, too. None of it made my list, mainly because it’s still too new and I want to see how it all plays out, but I could see it making my list a couple years from now.

@ Jeremy – I think it’s a perfectly legitimate complaint for someone to say they don’t like a Morrison story, or anyone’s story for that matter, because they don’t get it. Some people don’t want to have to re-read a story, or read interviews with the author, or go to blogs to pick up on things they missed. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad story, but I think that is a legitimate reason for someone to not like a story or author. When they use that argument as proof that a story or author is bad, when plenty of other people did “get it” or understand, then I no longer think it’s a legitimate argument.

When they use that argument as proof that a story or author is bad, when plenty of other people did “get it” or understand, then I no longer think it’s a legitimate argument.

Good call. That’s an important distinction.

For the record, I’ll mention one science error to give some idea of what I’m talking about. This is actually the one that annoys me the least, because the actual story works better with bad science.

One of the plot points in FC is that Darkseid’s evil is causing a gravitational effect on Earth, effectively causing Earth to fall in a black hole. One of the effects is time dilation; in what takes a day outside the black hole, the Earth experiences a month.

The problem is that Morrison has this backwards: the effects of gravity should make it look like Earth has experienced less time than the outside universe, and Oa should see Earth suffer for a few seconds, not a few months.

It’s clear that Morrison wants to appeal to the theory of relativity and some of its well known affects. It’s also clear that Morrison has messed up the science, unless he wants relativity to work differently in the DCU than in the real world (and by referencing gravitons, it’s clear he wants the benefits of appealing to this theory.) In fact, Morrison is probably confusing the effecting of velocity time dilation (what happens when you move close to the speed of light) and gravitational time dilation (the effect of too much gravity.) That said, this is a case where messing up the science makes for a better story (and Morrison makes the same mistake in All Star Superman 12 with the effects of the gravity gun on Luthor, but he gets the same benefit in story telling.)

You’re absolutely right jazzbo, particularly that last part. Thats what I was kind of getting at, but you worded it much better than I could >_>

“$20 for 3 issues is ridiculous”

It’s $20 for 4 issues (and #601 is as big as three regular comics easily, assuming they include the Stern and Waid bits).

Yeah, it is 4 issues I mistakenly wrote 49, 600 and 601 but it is 49,50,600 and 601. While they might include the extra ones, they didn’t include the extra ones with Daredevil (Return of the King includes Daredevil 500) or Thor (volume 2 would have Thor #600 but they don’t have the extras) so I wouldn’t bet on them including the extra bits in this trade.

There’s a difference between complicated and complex. Final Crisis was complicated, but I didn’t feel that it had any depth or richness or complexity to it. It jumped all around the universe with a serious case of ADHD, never taking the time to let a scene live or breathe. Characters and events came and went so fast that nothing had any emotional impact. The last issue had nothing to do with the first issue. It was sloppy. I’m not a Morrison-hater –Doom Patrol and Animal Man are two of my favorite comics– but he seems to have gotten bored.

When Buddy Baker enters the world of storytelling to get his family back, it means something, because Morrison first makes us intensely care about that family, and then forces us to examine those feelings and therefore think about what stories mean to us. When Superman pulls out a similar deus ex machina at the end of Final Crisis, Morrison only draws our attention to the fact that we’re not emotionally involved in the outcome, one way or another.

There was a pretty good X-Men in Asgard story a few years ago. Was it Claremont? Have to dig it out of the trunk in the garage.

Anybody remember that?

nickP-

you’re thinking of one of two stories:

x-men/alpha flight 1 & 2- written by chris claremont with art by paul smith

new mutants special 1 & x-men annual 9- written by chris claremont with art by art adams.

both are stories set in asgard with loki as the villain. continuity-wise, i’m not sure which takes place/came out first, though both are from the mid-80s. but i’ve read both and if you enjoy claremont’s x-men, they are some of the high points of his tenure. i probably slightly prefer the latter because i love art adams’ art and it involves a sub plot of storm taking over for thor in asgard while he was otherwise occupied during simonson’s run on his own title.

Damn – I really wish I’d read Final Crisis so I could weigh in. Going by my past experience of the more complicated Morrison works I expect to be confused…

3 out of 5 this week bringing my total to 45 out of 55 read – and still none of my votes have turned up.

Final Crisis – Not read yet

Marvels – Excellent stuff – made my shortlist.

Rock of Ages – The high point of Morrison’s JLA run. This made my shortlist too.

Death of Captain America – I have the first 2 trades, but I’m waiting till I have all three to start reading it.

7 Solders – I loved some bits (Frankenstein, The Guardian). Didn’t much like others (Mister Miracle). The final issue confused the hell out of me and left me unsatisfied.

“Do we also get a moratorium on the Morrison-haters setting themselves up as the cool Emperor-has-no-clothes-shouters who are somehow more “real” and unpretentious in their brave, salt-of-the-Earth stand against the great Morrisonian conspiracy of people who are “obviously” just trying to look sophisticated in return? Because that would be nice.”

Isn’t this the blog where Morrison is referred to as “The God Of All Comics”? ‘Cuz, if so, then no, I kinda doubt you’re going to get that moratorium.

Enrique-
Cool beans that you picked up Death of Speedy! you should see if your library has the Locas hardcover. It’s got all the Maggie and Hopey stories from the original Love and Rockets series. (But be warned- the beginning is way different. Jaimie was doing some sci-fi stuff before he settled into the more real-life vibe he was in by Death of Speedy).

I personally love all the little bits that are thrown into Love and Rockets. I love the language and the slang and the music and the cultural references. I first discovered Love and Rockets when I was a teenage suburban white boy and it really helped open my eyes to how cool it is to learn about all aspects of our weird-ass, melting pot culture.

Isn’t this the blog where Morrison is referred to as “The God Of All Comics”? ‘Cuz, if so, then no, I kinda doubt you’re going to get that moratorium.

Surely you appreciate sarcasm, Chad. I mean, you’re you, so you must!

Did you miss my meta-sarcasm, Brian? I mean, my post-meta, quasi-ironic, arch sarcasm? ‘Cuz, like, I mean, rilly, I totally was doing that. For reals.

Yeah, I found out about Locas, I’ll try to get my hands on those. If I like both the Locas books I’ll see if I like Gilberto’s stuff too. I also read that the first two issues of Maggie have her be a postsolar mechanic around dinosaurs and rockets. It sounds funny.

“Marvels” : my second vote to show. I still have at least 5 which I am sure will show.

Wow. Now where I was dismayed to see House of M on the list, I’m very happy to see Final Crisis make the list. It’s a challenging comic – probably a poor idea to use it as a Major Crossover Event as a result, but a comic I’m glad exists, because it significantly enriches the medium, and particularly enriches superhero comics.

Where I feel like Infinite Crisis has largely declined in people’s estimation since it came out, I expect Final Crisis to rise in people’s esteem. A fantastic comic.

Quite surprised to see Final Crisis there – evidentally I exist in a small parallel world where I and everyone I knew thought it was a disappointing mess of obscure DC references and clunky storytelling. Each to their own and all that – in fact, if you enjoyed it then great for you!

I just really thought it was very far from the heights of Morrison’s run on JLA – which it’s nice to see having a couple of shouts already.

Wow, it really was Grant Morrison day! I’m surprised that Final Crisis made the list and especially this high. For me, it just fizzled into a murky mess. I’m no Morrison hater. There are things that I absolutely loved (Doom Patrol, Nex X-Men, All-Star Superman) but a big experiment can also lead to a big mess.

They weren’t in my top 10, but I love that Marvels and Death of Captain America made the list.

“Isn’t this the blog where Morrison is referred to as “The God Of All Comics”? ‘Cuz, if so, then no, I kinda doubt you’re going to get that moratorium.”

I meant the entire comics internet, not this blog. In any case, I know such a moratorium’s not going to happen, but if nothing else, continued “I’m the down-to-Earth honest decent man against the snooty Morrisonites” attitudes basically provide a rubber stamp license for us Morrison fans to be as snooty and pretentious as we can possibly manage.
So, basically the status quo continues until one side blinks.
We’re waiting.

NickP, I’ll second daniels’ recommendation of that second X-Men in Asgard story (which I thought was in an annual). Loki deputises Storm in Thor’s absence. I recall a long, long time ago Marvel collected all the X-Men in Asgard stories in a trade and I regret not buying it at the time.

There’s also a great X-Men annual (#10, I think) where the X-Men faces their greatest fears while trying to stop a generic alien foe trying to get some cosmic cube/crystal. Great story to show the characters inner motivations.

Oric, the annual you describe is #11.

About Final Crisis…

Ok, I’m one of those guys who really thinks FC was the worse story I’ve ever read by Marvel or DC. But seeing how it made it on this list maybe I just didn’t get it. I don’t know. I remember reading it and feeling like there were huge gaps in the story. Some panels didn’t seem to be connected with anything else in the series. I remember being particularly annoyed when the story would switch scenes and there was no indication we were in a different location. Usually there’s a “meanwhile” in a caption to let the reader know.

I’m 40. My parents bought me comics to get me to read so I’ve been reading comics for as long as I can remember. This series was just over my head. I don’t buy ever tie-in. And to be fair it wa difficult to tell what tie-ins were essential to the main story and which ones weren’t. But if anyone can direct me to a website that goes into detail as a kind of companion I’ll reread it and see if I can make sense of it.

The Crazed Spruce

December 10, 2009 at 6:41 am

Anyone else find it odd that we’ve got the details for 45-41, but none for 50-46?

@ Mary Warner

Thanks for the correction. I’m not sure if I have that issue still, as I think my sister may have originally bought it.

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