Comic Book Resources

Man, I’m looking forward to this.

Shame he couldn’t work in Viking Batman.

“HOW did DC apparently get Morrison to coordinate his story with a Dan Jurgens mini-series?”

That’s my biggest question. Did DC ask Morrison to include Superman GL and Booster, or was it all his idea?

Part of me was hoping MarkAndrew would review this, just for the insanity of the review.

Bruce Wayne’s dialog is sped up. He’s so damn smart, his hyperspeed mind reads like gibbrish to the Cavemen. I thought that was a nice touch.

Bruce’s dialogue isn’t sped up at all. We’re hearing from the cavemen’s perspectives. Thus, the words come out the way they sound in the script.

I thought it was entertaining until the end. Why don’t they just go back a couple days? baah…

Morrison said that he starts out with amnesia so i was under the impression that his speach was slurred and he was very confused. Otherwise wouldnt he be talking a lot more and asking a lot more questions. This is the worlds greatest detective were talking about. Plus he snarls at joker so im assuming he is not entirely himself.

I was already excited about Dan Jurgens’ Time Master miniseries, but the fact that Morrison is apparently acknowledging and working with it makes it that much better.

Yeah, we’re hearing everything in cave-language, so we get a phonetic version of Bruce’s 20th century English. Notice that on the last page, when he’s among English speakers, Bruce’s dialogue isn’t muddled.

Just curious, but is that supposed to be the Batcave (Needless to say, I have not read this yet)? If it is the Batcave, how does Morrison explain the Caucasoid looks of the “Cavemen,”as the Batcave is located in North America? Is he invoking some kind of Kennewick Man style racial group? For that matter, how far back is this set? According to recent studies, Blond hair is only about 11,000 years old.

Anthro and several of his tribesmen had blond hair and Caucasian features when he was introduced back in the 1970s and has been depicted that way ever since; complaining about the science is about 40 years late at this point.

Omar Karindu, regarding Anthro’s Blond hair, I realize that his looks predate modern genetics. However, that does not mean that DC could not retcon him and give him dark hair and eyes.

A character like Anthro has very few distinguishing features. His hair color is one of them. To change it would diminish the impact of using the character in the first place.

Apodaca:

“A character like Anthro has very few distinguishing features. His hair color is one of them. To change it would diminish the impact of using the character in the first place.”

I disgree. Anthro’s status as a paleolithic hero makes him quite unique. Giving him an historically correct look (dark hair and eyes) would not diminish his impact.

Incidentally, since no one has answered my question, I will ask it again: Is the cave in the issue supposed to be the Batcave? If it is, why are the “Cavemen” not Amerinds, as the setting would then be pre-Columbian North America?

I know that on CBR having a Morrison byline means that it’s automatically going to be given an extra star, but that means this issue deserves one star… worse book that I got this week, and I was stupid enough to pick up Green Hornet Strike(but at least that seems to have potential)

It’s a pretty bad week when I actually agree with Hannibal Tabu about his buy pile.

Is the cave in the issue supposed to be the Batcave?

No.

“Is the cave in the issue supposed to be the Batcave? If it is, why are the “Cavemen” not Amerinds, as the setting would then be pre-Columbian North America?”

Maybe you’re confused about what you’re reading but…this is a comic book. One that features time-traveling superheroes no less.

I am sooo excited to read this.

Eric:
“Maybe you’re confused about what you’re reading but…this is a comic book.One that features time-traveling superheroes no less.”

Yes,Eric, I do realize that I am reading a comic book. I also recall the hoopla over the Egyptians in S.H.I.EL.D. #1 being accidentally given a fair complexion. Actually, depicting Cro-Magnons as Blonds (Assuming that that is what they are supposed to be) is a far greater error than drawing Ancient Egyptians as having fair complexions. Although some Egyptians are/were fair complected, modern genetics indicate that no Blond Cro-Magnons existed.

While it’s true that features such as blond hair and blue eyes appear to be rather recent (a little more than 10, 000 years ago), that’s the least of problems paleoanthropologists would have with Anthro. If he’s supposed to be the introducer of fire, then he’s got to be at least hundreds of thousands years ago, which is how far the best dated ancient hearths seem to go back . And Richard Wrangham has argued recently that the changes in Homo erectus more than two million years ago were caused by cooking and, therefore, fire. It might be best to shrug and say that fire and blondeness are both recent in the DC Universe; after all, we’re told in Blackest Night that life evolved first on Earth, which would make it no more than about four billion years old, when, if I remember aright, the Guardians are supposed to have emerged a billion years or so after the Big Bang. Clearly, adhering to a scientific chronology (or even self-consistency) is not a high priority for DC.

Dean: thought I’d mention that I belatedly responded to your question in the Greatest Englehart Stories, if you’re still curious.

kisskissbangbang, don’t remind about Morrison’s monumental wallbanger regarding fire! And people talk about the writers from the Golden and Silver Ages playing fast and loose. I live in dread that the “Puritan Witch-hunter” Bruce Wayne stuff will feature witches in colonial America being burned at the stake (For the uninitiated, English witches, in both the Old World and in the New, were hanged, not burned at the stake.).

Trajan: I figured Grant was just going along with whatever Kubert (it was Joe Kubert who created Anthro, wasn’t it? I’ve never actually read it) established back in the day. Also, I don’t have any reason to think he has any special knowledge or interest in prehistoric humans. On the other hand, given that he practices magick, I’ll be rather surprised if he doesn’t know how witches were executed.

I was a bit disappointed by Batman and Robin but this one is really fantastic : it’s fast-paced, fun and smart. I love the fact that we see history’s first “Dynamic Duo”. I can’t wait to read the next issue.

These stories just don’t aim for such strict verosimilitude.

Isn’t Anthro brown-haired in most of his appearances, however?

As for Morisson knowing about how witches were killed – well, the witches I’ve met gave me the distinct impression that much of their witchcraft involved favoring what one wants to believe to be true over what logic would dictate to be indeed true. I guess Morrison is much the same in this respect.

I also guess that is why Darkseid turned out to be unable of building a durable clone of Bruce Wayne. The story of the mad clones was engaging, but really… this is freaking Darkseid we are talking about. He has been cloning humans to perfection since 1970, no less.

I realize that this is just one more occasion of putting Batman under a quasi-mystical light of uniqueness. But it is still tacky.

If you hated this book then I feel sorry for you, because you obviously hate comics and things that are awesome.

And why would an alien from light-years away that feeds on solar radiation look just like a human being? How dare they tell us that there are actually little green men on Mars! And indigo isn’t a real color in the spectrum, just something Isaac Newton made up to satisfy his numerological theories!

Man, these comic books about superheroes are the worst textbooks on elementary science I’ve ever read. But oddly, all my elementary science textbooks are utterly unsatisfying as superhero comics.

Oh cruel fate, why must I suffer so?!?

I want to see Bruce Wayne as Batman, I passed on this book thought I’d wait and see where he landed. I just wasn’t crazy about seeing the Bat as a cowboy and whatever. I liked the Chris Sprouse art on Tom Strong, and looking at this I may have to reconsider, and pick it up. But whats with the rocket? I don’t get where it comes into play. or is that the old Legion HQ turned upside down ala Plant of the Apes & Lady Liberty. Anyway looks Cool! later!

Omar Karindu:

Yes, as I have already stated, I am well aware of the differences between fiction and reality. I am also perfectly willing to accept various genre conventions (FTL, humanoid aliens, time travel, violation of the cube square law, etc). However, I tend to dislike factual distortions which serve no real purpose within the fictional “reality.” For the Superman concept to work, we have to accept the idea that humanoid aliens exist; for the Doctor Strange concept to work, we have to accept that magic works. These are essential deviations from reality. Without them, the characters will not work. Anthro having blond hair (in defiance of modern genetics) is not essential to the Anthro concept. Witches being burnt at the stake (Assuming that Morrison intends to feature such scenes) does not seem essential to the concept of a “Witch-Hunter” Batman. I was willing to allow the Anthro inventing fire bit, as it actually served a purpose within the story (Although I still think that a less blatantly anachronist innovation would have been better, perhaps an atlatl or bow and arrow).

It seems rather obvious that Bruce isn’t traveling through remotely realistic historical periods, but rather through various Historical Adventure subgenre pieces.

In that case,it’s entirely appropriate to have witches burning at the stake, blond cave-people, and so forth.

It sounds like you’re not capable of enjoying such a story, trajan, and are instead compelled to shake your fist at whatever you deem outside the realm of “essential deviations from reaity.” But your standard of “essential” appears entirely arbitrary.

It also seems apparent that most people ’round here don’t share your standard, and thus, you’re coming off as a pedant.

Omar Karindu:

1. “It sounds like you’re not capable of enjoying such a story…”: I don’t recall saying that I will dislike the story. I am simply saying that I prefer playing tennis with the net up (To adapt Robert Frost’s phrase). Actually, I am looking forward to reading Morrison’s riff on the old Carter Nichols sends Batman on a journey through time schtick.

2. ‘But your standard of “essential” appears entirely arbitrary”: It does? How so? To use my old example, reading a Doctor Strange story requires that one accept that magic works within the story. If magic does not exist, then Strange is not a wizard. How is blondness essential to Anthro?

Isn’t Anthro brown-haired in most of his appearances, however?

Yes, Anthro has always had brown hair. It’s the “last” boy on earth, Kamandi, that’s blond.

It’s still an utterly arbitrary line in that you can draw it elsewhere. You can, for example, point out that there’s no magic in real life, and that Strange should therefore have some sort of sci-fi basis for his powers. Or state that the “solar power” explanation of Superman’s powers is wholly inadequate because of the minimal energy input he’d “really” get on Earth.

Where you see the story as needing X plot element to work, someone else sees something they call “inessential” and demand be retconned or changed, just as you think Anthro’s tribesmen should have radically revised appearances to make them look like what modern genetics tells us “real” cavemen would look like.

Now, you think your standard is reasonable; you think your level of “essential suspension of disbelief” is the right one. But so does every other person on the planet who reads fiction, and many of them have wildly different standards. Why should they prefer your dividing line? What, objectively, is wrong with saying that drawing Anthro and his cavepeople on-model or playing to the popular image of burning witches is all good fun and not something to worry about; or alternately, demanding that Doctor Strange be tweaked to ditcht hat ridiculous superstition stuff?

You have no real way of arguing for the essential character of your definition of “essential.”

Omar Karindu:

“You have no real way of arguing for the essential character of your definition of “essential”. Really? Let’s try a little thought experiment:

1.Superman is a squid-like monster from an alien world who posseses no superpowers. Is this Superman?

2. Doctor Strange lives in a world where magic does not exist. Is this Doctor Strange?

3. Barry Allen lives in a world without the “speed force.” Is he the Flash?

4. Anthro has dark hair. Is he Anthro?

5. Witch-hunter Batman sends witches to the gallows, not to the stake. Does this significanlty alter anything?

Perhaps it is just me, but two of these changes seem a little less….. significant than the others.

Barry Allen sure never heard of any “speed force” before he died in the Crisis, so I’m guessing that’s one of the insignificant ones.

And as I mentioned before, Anthro’s hair has traditionally been brown, so yep, that would be Anthro all right.

Oh how it feels like high school again, hangin out at the comic shop here. One comic nerd trying to get the goat of another. For those who migh wonder how they came to the conclusion that Sman, GL, and Booster would konw about Bruce;

1) Booster seems to know about all past events as he is from the future.
2) GL and Nightwing talked about Bruce being alive still as he was the only on who was unaffected by Necron and therefore the body the Black Lanterns got was not Bruce’s afterall.
3) Sman and Bman are BFF.
nuff siad

@ Trajan23:

I’d argue that what you are asking for is less akin to Dr. Strange living a world magic exists than advocating that Dr. Strange operate according to the exact principles of Wica. Maybe it would make the stories better to have them confirm to some rules that come from the world beyond comics. On the other hand, it is certainly something that is pretty clearly a pure judgement call by the creator. Morrison is more interested in DC than real world history (or anthropology). It is pretty much the premise of the series.

I didn’t get the pearl necklace reference until my second read through, I lol’d.

I wonder if the whole series is going to be about Bruce being a ‘father-figure’ to orphaned boys through-out history. Also, did anyone think the caveman named Joker was gonna be the bad guy? Turned out he was just a guy who liked to joke around

Blond or brunette (actually, in this story Anthro’s hair is gray, since he’s old and dead), what really bothers me here is CRO-MAGNONS (of which Anthro was always supposed to be “the first”) in NORTH AMERICA. The Cro-Magnons (a particular culture of anatomically modern humans) existed in Europe some 40,000 years ago (long, long after the cultivation of fire, as noted upthread). There were NO humans in North America 40,000 years ago. Cavemen quite simply never existed in the New World.

I can’t believe that Grant Morrison is ignorant of this very basic scientific fact. I also can’t believe that he could be aware of it and yet not bother to throw some explanatory rationale into the story, at least a line or two of dialogue. It’s the kind of thing that yanks one completely out of one’s “suspension of disbelief” zone.

Blond or brunette (actually, in this story Anthro’s hair is gray, since he’s old and dead), what really bothers me here is CRO-MAGNONS (of which Anthro was always supposed to be “the first”) in NORTH AMERICA. The Cro-Magnons (a particular culture of anatomically modern humans) existed in Europe some 40,000 years ago (long, long after the cultivation of fire, as noted upthread). There were NO humans in North America 40,000 years ago. Cavemen quite simply never existed in the New World.

I can’t believe that Grant Morrison is ignorant of this very basic scientific fact. I also can’t believe that he could be aware of it and yet not bother to throw some explanatory rationale into the story, at least a line or two of dialogue. It’s the kind of thing that yanks one completely out of one’s “suspension of disbelief” zone.

I don’t believe they say it is in North America.

But anyhow, as others have noted, the cavemen are all speaking English!! This is the “comic book” past, not the “real” past.

Well, no, the cavemen are all speaking their own language that’s presented in English for the readers’ sake, but Bruce’s actual English is incomprehensible to them.

Meanwhile, as much as I would like to be able to read this as set somewhere in Eurasia (and that would also make sense of the “evidence” Tim found in the early issues of Red Robin), Morrison is on the record in interviews as saying this all happens (for reasons he doesn’t make entirely clear) in Batman’s “own area”… i.e., the cave in every installment is what later becomes the Batcave. IMHO that approach causes more story problems than it solves, but nevertheless it’s what he intends.