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Top 75 Most Memorable Moments in DC Comics History: #55-46

We provided a series of memorable DC moments for you to vote for, we also gave you the chance to nominate other moments (which you then also voted on to get them on to the “ballot”) and then you came out in droves to vote for them all! I think it was our biggest turnout yet (as it turns out, more people will vote if they just have to click buttons to vote). So now, we begin the countdown of the Top 75 most memorable moments in the 75-year history of DC Comics!!! Do note that spoilers will almost certainly be present in these moments, and some of them could have come from comics that were intended for mature audiences only. So be forewarned!

Here is a link to #75-66. Here is a link to #65-56.

And now, here’s 55-46!

Enjoy!

55. The opening page of Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow (Superman #423 by Alan Moore, Curt Swan and George Perez)

Alan Moore delivers one of the coolest opening lines to a comic book story ever. The background art by Curt Swan and George Perez was dropped for the collected edition, for some reason, and replaced instead with a plain blue background with Moore’s text written in a larger font. I get that Moore’s words are the key to the beginning, but it still seems like a slightly odd idea to make the change.

54. Sue Dibny is raped (Identity Crisis #2 by Brad Meltzer, Rags Morales and Michael Bair)

(click on images to enlarge)

Brad Meltzer and DC editorial felt that they needed to have something awfully bad happen to compel the Justice League to put them into a position where they would actually mess with a supervillain’s mind. What they settled on was having Doctor Light rape Sue Dibny years ago when her husband, the Elongated Man, was a member of the “satellite era” of the Justice League of America.

53. Superman flies into the sun to save it (All Star Superman #12 by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely)

(click on images to enlarge)

In a lot of ways, the entire 12-issue epic series by Morrison and Quitely was leading up to this moment, where a dying Superman flies into the sun to save it…after having a nice goodbye scene with Lois, of course.

52. The first woman in a refrigerator (Green Lantern v3 #54 by Ron Marz, Darryl Banks and Romeo Tanghal)

(click on images to enlarge)

The new Green Lantern, Kyle Rayner, had just been introduced a few issues earlier when writer Ron Marz came up with his own sort of “Uncle Ben getting shot” moment for Kyle (who was, in a lot of ways, a 1990s version of Peter Parker as a Green Lantern) when he had the sadistic Major Force viciously murder Kyle’s girlfriend, Alex DeWitt, after Force had been sent to retrieve Kyle’s ring.

51. Swamp Thing makes a discovery (Saga of the Swamp Thing #21 by Alan Moore, Stephen Bissette and John Totleben)

The Moore/Bissette/Totleben creative team quickly made a name for themselves in this dramatic reveal that Swamp Thing was not, in fact, a transformed Alec Holland, but a mutated plant creature that THOUGHT it was Alec Holland. One of the most legendary “game-changers” in the history of comics.

50. Animal Man meets his maker (Animal Man #25 by Grant Morrison, Chas Truog and Mark Farmer)

(click on images to enlarge)

Speaking of “game-changing,” in the penultimate issue of Grant Morrison’s critically acclaimed Animal Man run, the star of the book, Animal Man (Buddy Baker) comes face to face with…Grant Morrison!?!?

49. Dick Grayson loses one relationship, gain a new, unhealthy one (Detective Comics #38 by Bill Finger, Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson)

(click on images to enlarge)

Just a few months after his brilliant origin for Batman, Bill Finger delivered a similarly great origin (and by “similarly great,” I, of course, mean “the same basic origin”) for Batman’s new sidekick, Dick Grayson – Robin, the Boy Wonder! In case Bruce Wayne happens to be reading, I am sorry if I offended you by making fun of how you turned a young boy who had just experienced a great deal of trauma into a tool to aid you in your war on crime. It’s all in good fun, Bruce!

48. It ends with a wink (Action Comics #583 by Alan Moore, Curt Swan, Kurt Schaffenberger and an uncredited Murphy Anderson)

Throughout Whatever Happened the Man of Tomorrow, the story has been told via Lois Lane recounting the events of the past to a reporter doing a story on the last days of Superman. Her husband Jordan has been home for most of it. Jordan does not seem to be a big fan of Superman. The story ends with Jordan (and Alan Moore and the rest of the creative team) letting us in on who he REALLY is…

47. Wonder Woman wins the contest to go to Man’s World! (All-Star Comics #8 by William Moulton Marston and H.G. Peter)

(click on images to enlarge)

In her first comic book appearance, we get to see one of the most iconic origins of the Golden Age, as “The Contest” has been used numerous times since this first time.

46. Darkseid revealed as the “big bad” of the Great Darkness Saga (Legion of Super-Heroes #293 by Paul Levitz, Keith Giffen and Larry Mahlstedt)

(Click on either page to enlarge)

After a number of issues teasing who the mastermind was behind the Great Darkness Saga, after diabolically turning the entire populace of Daxam into a world of mind-controlled Supermen, the big bad guy is finally revealed – and it is Darkseid!!!!

Click here for #45-36!

50 Comments

So basically we’re going through the entire list again, but in a different order. That seems a bit like overkill to me.

still surprised to see what ever happen to the man of tomorrow already on this list and two moments to boot for figured it would be in the higher bracket. as for the rape of sue. that moment showed how nasty the dc universe can be and how a family member of a super hero can be a target . plus its the most disturbing and sick moments ever. same with alex stuffed int he fridge

Basque, that’s how a poll is usually done: list the options, then later list the results.

I bought Animal Man and there is no way it deserves 2 pots in this Top 75. I don’t think it even merits one.

I thought both Darkseid and Superman’s wink would get higher (in fact, I thought the wink might make the top ten, it was a really nice ending.

Brian, I was going to throw in my top ten predictions, but would you prefer we didn’t speculate on these boards? (I know in past lists you thought it took away some of the suspense).

anyway, my top ten predictions basically consist of death, death and Moore death, so no real surprises there.

#55. The opening page of “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorow?” appears as shown above in the Deluxe Edition hardcover (with some minor recoloring).

To be fair, we’re at the point where all of the remaining moments are going to be obviously memorable.

For what it’s worth I feel that all of the moments from 46-75 are worthwhile moments, except Dr. Rape. (And I realize that worthwhile doesn’t equal memorable.)

Tom Fitzpatrick

August 11, 2010 at 2:41 pm

Does anyone know if Grant Morrison actually had hair back in the day when he guest-starred in Animal Man # 26?

No, Tom, I’m fairly Alan Moore accidentally caused Morrison to go bald at a young age, after which they became archnemeses.

The Alan Moore DC Omnibus trade paperback also keeps the opening page intact as shown above.

Yeah, I would prefer we keep the discussion away from predictions, because especially when we get closer to the end, the predictions almost always become pretty darn accurate, so it’s basically like seeing the list and then me showing the list, ya know?

@Tom Fitz
I wonder about this myself. I can’t help but thing that this must be pretty much how he looked back then.
Bad enough that some of us have old photos from the 80s but Grant is imortalised as some kind of emo dandy. If the story sucked, he would never live it down.

Then again, if the story sucked we probably wouldn’t remember.

Yes, Morrison had hair back then. And from the few photos I’ve seen of him from that time, he dressed like that, too.

No, Tom, I’m fairly Alan Moore accidentally caused Morrison to go bald at a young age, after which they became archnemeses.
Alan Moore stole Grant Morrison’s hair, for use in his own luxuriant beard. And that’s terrible.

Gotta say, that I have reached a point over the last 6 years where I find the whole retro-rape of Sue Dinby to be utterly distasteful and so full of all the offensive cliches that I had hoped would have been dispelled about rape by now like this:

“She told me she fought. I hope she fought.”

Jesus Christ, maybe it is some kinda guilt over ever having liked this story in the first place, but I now truly dislike almost all things about Identity Crisis.

I now feel it was a misstep – the whole series – on DC’s part, and that it only proves that loudly proclaiming one is above childish things isn’t an indication of maturity. It’s a sure sign of adolescence.

Swamp Thing finding out he isn’t Alec Holland and Animal Man meeting Grant Morrison are two moments I thought were sure things to be in the top 25, and they’re probably in my personal top 10. I’m very sad they turned up so low.

I like WW’s origin, although when did Amazons know about guns & bullets to stage that last contest?

I love Bill and Dean’s comments on the origins of the Morrison/Moore rivalry. Something I’ve commented about before — at the beginning of Transmetropolitan, Spider has a big thick Alan Moore-y beard, then is shaved and comes out looking Morrison-y. I wonder if that’s some sort of metacommentary.

I have to take issue with Andrew Collins, though. From the copy of the (what was the exact title, dammit?) DCU stories of Alan Moore tpb I’ve read, the artwork shown above is there, but that wonderful text IS NOT. There was a piece back when it came out on Lying in the Gutters. They also drop the end paper rainy pages from Killing Joke. But to drop that opening text of “…Man of Tomorrow” kind of ruins the book, to a degree. It’s a good thing everything else in that book is so good.

7 of these moments were on my list, but it is virtually impossible for all my picks to have made the list now. I can only “miss” one more. Of course, like I said, there were only 3 moments that I would NOT have picked.

I think another reason the turn out was high, besides being able to just click on our picks, is that we therefore didn’t have to rank them, and could pick a lot or just a few. I picked 58 moments from the list, I don’t know what everyone else did.

I just realized that in Bill’s comment, he left out the word “certain” whoopsie!

As I said when Brian showed the moments, a moment like the Sue rape is memorable, yes, but so is a kidney stone.

I’ll complain just a little, I didn’t vote for the All Star Superman moment merely because I didn’t think it was the most memorable moment of that series. The goth girl or issue 6 are more memorable to me. But I had my chance to comment, and I missed it.

And I said this, too, and Schnitzey there will probably dislike this, too, but hey, they could have made Identity Crisis even worse.

They could have mind wiped Sue, too, and made her forget about the rape.

54 should be a “moment we’re all trying to forget” rather than a “memorable” one.

I loved Identity Crisis at the time but 7 years later having devoured a ton more DC Comics I hate it. When I went back and reread it all the character mistakes and the weakness of the plot stood out. There’s not that big of a difference between this work and Kevin Smith’s current Batman which is being panned. Just that Didio threw a ton of weight behind Identity Crisis while Widening Gyre (besides the celebrity writer) is just another release.

I love how certain CBR posters moan about what Dr Light did in Identity Crisis 2 yet they fail to mention that the exact same thing happened in Killing Joke!

And what’s that, david? What is the “exact same thing” that happened in Killing Joke? Because what the Joker did to Babs wasn’t a retconned rape that no one ever mentioned before ID Crisis. The shooting, paralysis, and degradation of Barbara Gordon may not be something we like, but it happened within the pages of Killing Joke, and had/has long term effects on the DCU. ID Crisis presents us with a rape that happened years ago but had never been mentioned in the intervening time, and really, nothing that happened there led to anything different in the DCU.

In fact, thinking about it, isn’t it odd that there were none of the “fear for the lives of our loved ones” after Sue’s rape? That it took her murder to get everyone up in arms? The more I think about it, I think maybe Zatanna DID mind wipe Sue and made her forget she was ever raped. Jesus.

Where did you get the idea that it was a retconned rape?

David, how was the rape not a retcon? The story didn’t happen in the midst of the seventies JLA run, and was only revealed in in 2003. That’s a retcon.

Thank you, Philip.

And just to let you know, David, that those of us who don’t like what happened to Sue also don’t like what happened to Barbara. Killing Joke has flaws, like the laugh at the end and the notion that Barbara had to be the sacrifice to start the story.

And I too, on reflection, am bothered, like Schnitzey, by that “hope she fought” bit, and it’s something I hadn’t thought about before. As if she deserved it if she didn’t fight. At least Ralph was better than Extreme Fundamentalist Elongated Man, who had his version of Sue stoned to death for the “crime” of being raped.

http://funnybookbabylon.com/2010/04/12/a-reminder-identity-crisis-was-a-terrible-mystery/

that link (if it works right), from a Sunday Brunch (thanks, Bill!) to remind us of how bad ID Crisis was.

and david got me thinking, and I have to thank him for this, but I figured out why Killing Joke is better than ID Crisis (and beg y’alls pardon for going on about it here, since there are no Killing Joke moments here): Killing Joke is better because someone is actually heroic there: Jim Gordon. Identity Crisis soils ALL the heroes (except the big 3 icons, but that’s because they sell the most). In Killing Joke, that moment near the end (which, thinking about it, should have made this list, c’est la vie) where Jim tells Batman “bring him in by the book, we have to show him our way works!” is heroic. Here’s a guy that’s been stripped and humilated, shown pictures of his daughter in states of undress, taken while she writhed in pain from being gut shot (right in front of Jim, btw), Jim doesn’t know if the Joker did worse to her, or if she’s even alive, and he KNOWS that Batman would finish the Joker for him if he wanted him to do so, but he STILL takes the moral high road, says we do it the RIGHT way. We don’t mind wipe people for hurting us, we play by the rules because we’re not animals. (and also, given that Gordon’s a detective himself, isn’t it quite likely [and it’s been implied various times] that he knows who Batman is, and probably knew that his daughter was Batgirl? and he still says do it the right way.)

Another quick bit on Killing Joke, while I’m on it. The Joker claims that if you have a bad day, you’ll go crazy. But the Joker’s bad day wasn’t done TO him, like Bruce Wayne’s, or Jim Gordon’s, but he did it to himself. He tried to make the easy money through the robbery, and it ended up being for naught as his wife died anyway. And is it just me, or is there an implication that it’s a little too convenient that the wife dies when she does, that maybe the hoods that he’s working with killed her?

@ Travis: Exactly! The point of The Killing Joke wasn’t that the Joker was right and Life is just a sick joke, but that he WASN’T, and Gordon proved it by staying a sane, good man despite of it. THAT should indeed have been the true memorable moment from that comic. But that’s fan myopia for you. We remember the flashy or the gory, not the noble.

Travis, you raise some of the points that I felt, but didn’t bring up, and in doing so touch on another difference that I want to expand upon:

We don’t actually know the full extent of what happened to Barbara Gordon, beyond what we do know. As to whether she was raped or not, it is mostly ambiguous as to whether things went that far. Even in terms of what we DO KNOW, Bolland and Moore use the same kind of dark but implied storytelling that Hitchcock (in his prime) did. In a weird way, that makes Killing Joke all the stronger because we are left to our own imagination to decide what may have fully happened to Barbara.

Quite apart from any market/audience reasons that determined the extent of what we saw or read in Killing Joke, I think Moore and Bolland did this also by choice. They have enough sensibility between them to know that to actually show in full all the horrid details is akin to tying up your readership and pissing on them.

In Identity Crisis, we have a goddamn two page spread – above it almost looks like a bloody ‘rape splash-page’, fully depicting the event.

So, the character of Sue, in the course of the entire storyline has to suffer the indignities of a ‘retro-rape’ being killed while pregnant with Ralph’s kid, and then having her corpse burnt to a crisp.

Beyond any indignity I feel about all of the above, the budding writer in me feels like it is also so cliche, boring and downright easy/lazy to resort to a rape to have propelled some of the events of Identity Crisis. Like there was nothing else that they could have come up with to introduce the mindwipe element?

Bull-fucking-shit.

Lazy arse writing. As lazy as me using so many goddamn cuss words to emphasize my points.

51 was hands down the moment that I wanted to read Swamp Thing. I got the “After the Watchmen” copy of the issue. After that I immediately went out and bought the first Vol.

‘How was the rape not a retcon? The story didn’t happen in the midst of the seventies JLA run, and was only revealed in in 2003. That’s a retcon.’
You seemed to have missed the point of what a retcon is. I’ll give you a clue: it isn’t one of the best minis between 2000 – 2009. BTW, how was the mastermind behind this supposed to cover up the evidence if the flamethrower wasn’t used?

I don’t even know WHAT david is talking about at this point. David, please read the piece I linked to above, to see WHY Identity Crisis was so nonsensical, even beyond the points that Schnitzy in particular is making.

Thanks to Sijo and Schnitzy for expanding on my points (and agreeing with me, that goes a long ways too :) )

Again about Sue’s rape — was there ever ANYWHERE in the DCU after this that had ANY of Sue’s reaction to being raped? I know that she makes brief appearances in 52 and in Batman and the Outsiders, but has ANYONE written ANY scene where she acknowledges her rape and goes into anything about how she dealt with it?

My new theory, that Sue was mindwiped too, is a disgusting element, but if you’re going to drag down your heroes anyway, drag ‘em all the way down, why the hell not? Because otherwise there was no reason at all to rape/murder Sue. Those of us who love that Elongated Man mini HATED this story, and since there’s no FOLLOWUP either, it’s even more shitty. As I said, after Sue was raped, why wasn’t there all the “holy shit, our loved ones could be affected aversely by our super hero lifestyle” reactions (that were in ID Crisis)? It’s like they really didn’t care until she was murdered.

Killing Joke — I’m of the opinion that the Joker, who’s at his most coldly calculating and disturbing during Killing Joke, DIDN’T have Barbara raped as well, but figured the ambiguity would help push Gordon over the edge. (But that’s just me hoping for, well, the “best” is too far considering she’s PARALYZED, but…) But what I am wondering how the Joker knew that Barbara would open the door. If Jim answered, would he have shot him?

What do you mean I don’t know what I’m talking about? I made it very clear in my original post!

You seemed to have missed the point of what a retcon is. I’ll give you a clue: it isn’t one of the best minis between 2000 – 2009.

Wait, what mini-series are you talking about?

I just realized that in Bill’s comment, he left out the word “certain” whoopsie!

I’m just using Scott McCloud’s principle of “closure” from Understanding Comics, only with words and no pictures.

Nice use of the term , Bill. Well done.

And david, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Neither does Bill. You might know what you’re talking about, but since you don’t seem to realize that the Sue rape is in fact a retcon, I wonder.

I love how certain CBR posters moan about what Dr Light did in Identity Crisis 2 yet they fail to mention that the exact same thing happened in Killing Joke!

That’s your original post, david. Since several of us, mostly me, questioned WHAT you’re talking about, you obviously didn’t make it clear. How is Dr Light raping Sue (something never before brought up, that was only done to kick off the “plot” of Identity Crisis) the same as the Joker shooting Barbara Gordon, then stripping her and taunting her father with the photos of her naked, in pain? Yes, they’re both degrading to the women involved, but the Killing Joke incident HAPPENED WITHIN THAT ISSUE! Not something that “happened” years ago but no one ever talked about.

‘How was the rape not a retcon? The story didn’t happen in the midst of the seventies JLA run, and was only revealed in in 2003. That’s a retcon.’
You seemed to have missed the point of what a retcon is. I’ll give you a clue: it isn’t one of the best minis between 2000 – 2009. BTW, how was the mastermind behind this supposed to cover up the evidence if the flamethrower wasn’t used?

Are you claiming that Identity Crisis is one of the best minis of the first decade of this century? Seriously?

Again, go up to my post with the link in it, and click on it. Read the post. Find out WHY Identity Crisis made no sense as a story. Then come back and try to explain what you’re talking about.

Again, the Sue rape moment is memorable, but so is a kidney stone.

Don’t get huffy with me. Here is what you said about Identity Crisis in your post:
‘As I said when Brian showed the moments, a moment like the Sue rape is memorable, yes, but so is a kidney stone.’
This proves to me you disliked it from the start.

Uh huh.

I think it’s pretty clear from the start of ANYTHING I’ve ever said about Identity Crisis, I don’t like it. I would never dispute that. I’m not really sure there’s ANYTHING that I can think of from the book that I like.

We’re talking now about what you’re saying, david. You came on to this post, and you equated what happened to Sue in Identity Crisis to what happened to Barbara Gordon (I assume that’s what you mean, anyway) in Killing Joke. I did go on to add that just because I don’t like what happened to Sue in IDC, doesn’t mean I like what happened to Barbara.

YOU got huffy and thought I said YOU didn’t know what you were talking about, when I said I didn’t know what you were talking about.

Here’s all your posts, David:

I love how certain CBR posters moan about what Dr Light did in Identity Crisis 2 yet they fail to mention that the exact same thing happened in Killing Joke!

Where did you get the idea that it was a retconned rape?

‘How was the rape not a retcon? The story didn’t happen in the midst of the seventies JLA run, and was only revealed in in 2003. That’s a retcon.’
You seemed to have missed the point of what a retcon is. I’ll give you a clue: it isn’t one of the best minis between 2000 – 2009. BTW, how was the mastermind behind this supposed to cover up the evidence if the flamethrower wasn’t used?

What do you mean I don’t know what I’m talking about? I made it very clear in my original post!

Here’s a quote from wikipedia on the Retroactive Continuity page:

Cugley used the newly-shortened word[retcon] to describe a development in the comic book Saga of the Swamp Thing, which reinterprets the events of the title character’s origin by revealing facts that, up to that point, are not part of the narrative and were not intended by earlier writers.

Sue’s rape is something “up to that point” “not part of the narrative” and wasn’t “intended by earlier writers”.

If you’d like to explain what it is you’re getting at, david, feel free, because I don’t think anyone here has quite grasped it. I know you won’t change my mind about liking Identity Crisis, but perhaps you could explain why you equate Dr Light’s rape of Sue with the Joker’s shooting and degradation of Barbara. Or why you think Sue’s rape isn’t a retcon. Or what the “best mini of 2000-2009″ is that you’re talking about. Or what the flamethrower has to do with anything we’ve been discussing.

But you probably won’t, because I’m too huffy about it.

But honestly, thanks for bringing it up, because you made me think about WHY I prefer, of the 2, Killing Joke to Identity Crisis. As I said, Killing Joke has a hero, Jim Gordon, who doesn’t let the fact that the bad guy hurt him and his daughter badly keep him from doing the right thing.

But who are these ‘earlier writers’ in your post? I win.

I guess so, david, I guess so.

I figure one or two sentences without defending any position is working for you, so I’ll try it.

The Living Tribunal

August 15, 2010 at 1:12 am

I rule in favor of Travis Pelkie.

*vanishes*

Hot damn, I’ve got the Living Tribunal on my side! It’s nice to know that he (it?) even takes an interest in DC goings-on.

Schnitzy Pretzelpants

August 15, 2010 at 1:26 pm

I, Schnitzy, side with The Living Tribunal too, and feel the title of Troll most becoming of yon, David. Methinks his arguments about retcon terminology stem from Trolling, and not a lack of understanding the term.

Yay, Schnitzy’s on my side too!

Pretzelpants, though? You’ll get salt in those hard to reach places…

Actually, I do thank david for forcing me to articulate WHY Killing Joke is better than Identity Crisis (besides “it just is”). I think that’s the reason I kept up the “argument”.

As for the bulk of this particular thread, Travis, take heart!
Ted Rall puts it all in perspective. Note the ironic tone:

http://rall.com/gallery2/v/Cartoons/3-29-10.jpg.html

Ah, nice cartoon, B9000.

But I had the Living Tribunal rule in my favor, so that’s pretty cool too. For him to take an interest in DC doings, that’s something.

Rall has it exactly right.

I even devoted an entire Cronin Theory of Comics to this very point.

Actually, I liked this thread, because it was one of those that made me go “this person is so obviously wrong”, then “well, WHY is this person so obviously wrong?”, then I had an a-ha moment (take on me? no, wait) that led me to clarify my own thinking about Identity Crisis and Killing Joke, and come up with a REAL reason for disliking IDC. Not just “it sucked”. And it did make me think that maybe we missed a memorable moment when Jim Gordon tells Batman to take the Joker in by the book, show him our way is right.

And then I just kept it going because the response was just…odd. It felt like there was a Turing test going on that I wasn’t aware of.

And to be a bit snarky about Rall, wasn’t he the “first asshole” in the big Village Voice takes on art spiegelman a ways back? (I wanted to say a few years ago, but I think it happened while I was in college, so we’re talking closer to 10 years ago.)(and then looking at wikipedia, I see it was 1999. God I feel old.)

Unfamiliar with the Rall /Spiegelman dust up referenced above, but I was using the Rall cartoon on your behalf.

It just seemed that “David” gave the game away with his “I win” comment. These guys who are in it “for the lulz” —geez, Louise!
And if “lulz” wasn’t the reason why he persisted, then God love him, even more.

The Living Tribunal crossing over into this universe is something (I dig that floating, multifaceted head!), but using “Fringe” as a marker, alternate universe-hopping has gone decidedly mainstream. I think I may have heard Robert Gibbs reference it the other day.

Anyway, I’m with you on Sue’s fate (esp. the retconned rape incident) is significant AND an awful misstep.
I have the same distaste for what JMS (a writer I particularly like very much, mostly) did with Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn. I won’t go into it- I don’t need to repeat what Gail Simone and others have noted or explained long ago.

Here’s hoping things go our way come the next shuffle of the deck!

Oh, sorry if you thought I was being snarky towards you, B9000. Thanks for the backing, it was appreciated.

What I meant with the Rall/spiegelman thing is that Rall wrote a piece for the Village Voice about how spiegelman was controlling art jobs through the New Yorker (I’m not sure on the details, but check out the Rall entry on Wikipedia), so spiegelman “had” to respond, but from what I remember, it made him look jerky. Not unlike the cartoon you linked to. So Rall was “first asshole” there.

But yeah, my aha moment was realizing that Jim Gordon is the hero of Killing Joke, and that Identity Crisis has no heroes, because they’re ALL besmirched.

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