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CSBG Archive

The Abandoned An’ Forsaked – So The Skrulls Created the Hulk?

Every week, we will be examining comic book stories and ideas that were not only abandoned, but also had the stories/plots specifically “overturned” by a later writer (as if they were a legal precedent). Click here for an archive of all the previous editions of The Abandoned An’ Forsaked. Feel free to e-mail me at bcronin@comicbookresources.com if you have any suggestions for future editions of this feature.

Today we take a look at the back and forth nature of Bruce Banner’s assistant Igor and exactly what role he played in the Hulk’s origin (and whether he was even human!).

In Incredible Hulk #1, Igor is Bruce Banner’s assistant and Igor lets Banner get irradiated in the gamma explosion, figuring he can kill off Banner and then go look for Banner’s gamma ray secrets SOMEwhere.

Peter David famously examined Igor’s role in the Hulk’s creation in a great 30th anniversary story in 1993…

However, in 1999′s Hulk Annual, John Byrne, Lee Weeks, Dan Green and Klaus Janson revealed that the Skrulls were the ones who sent Rick Jones into the test because they were trying to sabotage Bruce Banner’s experiment (now a gamma LASER instead of a gamma bomb)…

Igor is then revealed to be a Skrull working to sabotage the laser…

This all tied in with a mini-series Byrne was doing at the time with Roger Stern where they revealed “lost” stories of the Marvel Universe before the Fantastic Four went into outer space and the Marvel Universe “truly” began (Banner took part in these lost adventures).

Peter David famously mocked the story in an issue of Captain Marvel, which you could argue also abandoned and forsaked the story as being a fictional story within the Marvel Universe.

In 2010, David Gallaher and Steve Ellis confirmed that the whole “Igor as Skrull” thing was officially retconned out in Hulk: Winter Guard #1, as Igor was captured and mutated by the Prescence (the issue reprinted Peter David’s aforementioned 30th anniversary story)….

That’s it for this week!

If YOU have a suggestion for a notable comic book retcon, let me know at bcronin@comicbookresources.com

51 Comments

I loved Marvel: Lost Generation. Hulk: Chapter One (the 1999 annual) not so much. Glad it and Spider-Man Chapter One are out of the cannon.

And the John Byrne bashing begins in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…

I’m not anti-Byrne, but that Hulk Annual just wasn’t that good, and since it was trying to overwrite something that was very good, the David issue, I immediately ignored it.

Another reason why this was undone is because the Leader stole one of Bruce’s gamma bombs and used it to destroy a town in PAD’s run- it wasn’t a gamma ray laser.

I’ve never understood this about John Byrne. For someone who seems to revere the early Lee/Kirby material, he always seems to rewrite it to fit his own version of continuity. Is there any Marvel series he’s worked on in which he *hasn’t* rewritten the origin of the character?

I still like his art however.

What series was that? I don’t think it was Lost Generation, nor do I think it was named Lost Heroes.

Michael Howey

March 9, 2013 at 7:18 am

Byrne is a legend but not without faults. During chapter one, while retcon big the while origin, he decided to explain why the colour of the spider on Spidey’s back was blue in the original printing of AF 15. While changing the whole origin he felt the need to explain that? Weird.

David Gallaher

March 9, 2013 at 7:19 am

That Winter Guard book was a log of fun to work on.
Thanks for mentioning it!

Byrne had a need–maybe even an obsession–to “condense” Marvel origins back then, as he thought that many independent events creating super-heroes was too farfetched even for a comic book universe. In SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE, he infamously had the explosion which created Doc Ock also cause the irradiation of the spider which bit Peter Parker. I also remember Byrne, in interviews, joking that since the Sandman was created in an atomic blast, he wanted it to be the same one that created the Hulk. My guess is that this was an effort to do something similar–”gee, atomic blasts don’t make sense in the 1990s, so let’s make it a laser (which explodes anyway).” More importantly, the Cold War had been long over, so Byrne probably wanted to replace the Russians with the Skrulls. (It had the added bonus of being a “preview” of LOST GENERATION.)

Of course, getting rid of the gamma blast would have impacted too much Hulk continuity. As somebody else said, the Leader stole one of Banner’s bombs and used it to destroy a town. (That story was published before Byrne’s retcon, not after.) The bomb was also instrumental in destroying the Maestro in the brilliant conclusion to PAD’s FUTURE IMPERFECT.

Meanwhile, I do find it weird that for all the 1990s reprints we’ve seen lately, LOST GENERATION hasn’t been among them. Maybe it would be too weird to republish, since the series ran backwards from #12 to #2, and then #1 really leaped ahead to AFTER #12. (You can read the series both forwards and backwards, and it’s intended to be read backwards, but it could be goofy as a mass-market read.)

Maybe we could have an “Abandoned an’ Forsaked” on the whole of LOST GENERATION itself? It’s only been vaguely referenced a few times since it was published, and I doubt most major writers want to touch it again.

I’ll never really understand why all the critiques/praise of certain stories or events (such as Byrne’s Hulk recon) are turned into mini-psychoanalysis of the creator’s themselves. I don’t hang any halos over John Byrne’s head, but he was *asked* to reboot Spider-Man by the people in charge at Marvel at the time; Chapter One was NOT some self-published fan fiction that he put up on the internet that was never going to be considered the new continuity by Marvel.

Same goes for Chapter One Hulk. He was commissioned & paid to write that story (& Lost Generation), with all the appropriate editorial oversight in place. Brevoort & Marvel had every right to disown the story & it’s affects after the publication; that’s part of their job; but nobody should think for one second that they weren’t aware & approving of the story whenever it was in process.

Adam:
“Maybe we could have an “Abandoned an’ Forsaked” on the whole of LOST GENERATION itself? It’s only been vaguely referenced a few times since it was published, and I doubt most major writers want to touch it again.”

It wouldn’t count precisely because no one’s touching it. Ironically the lack of desire to touch it makes it pretty much bulletproof for retcons. As long as no one establishes it didn’t happen, it’s still canon. The Black Fox (Lost Generation version) has an entry in the 2011 Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe softcover vol. 1, which reprinted the earlier hardcover series with updates. There was no update retconning the Black Fox, so Lost Generation was still confirmed as canon as of September 2011.

Chuck E.

Doesn’t the problem stem from the fact that Byrne has been pretty public with his criticism of creators who change or alter certain aspects of some stories published in the 60s (especially those by Kirby), or “don’t respect continuity”, while making many such changes himself, as detailed above?

Ironically, one of the means to create a high-energy-frequency laser (like the X-Ray lasers from Reagan’s SDI) is to put a laser focusing device for the right frequency on an atomic bomb – of course, you only get one shot that lasts milliseconds, per laser.

weird wasn’t Igor related to the Gremlin or am I misremembering ?

SoggyHydrox
Wrong character, right issue: in the second story of Incredible Hulk #1, The Gargoyle first appeared (and died). He was the father of the Gremlin.

@ Danny

Not quite sure what you mean by “the problem”. The contradiction you describe means that JB is a hypocrite in his public beliefs with his professional actions. Soooooo…..call him a hypocrite. No problem there. Doesn’t give anyone a sensible pass into “what he was thinking” when he created these stories.

My original point was he didn’t do *anything* in a vacuum. If there is blame to be had, there’s more than enough to go around.

Okay guys, let’s forget about it. It just.. just.. very bad story

The Comic Event that will have repercussions for years to come, nothing will be the same again. It’s…The Comic Creators vs. John Byrne!!!!!!!

Byrne started it, no?

PAD deserves a No-Prize for how he dealt with that Hulk origin.

This era of Marvel? Blech.

The early 2000′s is when I stopped reading their books after being a devoted reader for nearly twenty years.

I couldn’t stand how Marvel’s editors kept letting Byrne apply his “The Man of Steel” template to their own characters. Writers should be able to work around a character’s chronological baggage. However, he couldn’t be bothered to write anything in this era that didn’t involve jettisoning elements that we accepted about the original X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk, etc., campy or dated as they may be.

I dropped every Marvel book at the time except for Busiek’s Avengers and David’s Captain Marvel. Once those runs ended, I was done. I’m not surprised that garbage like “Marville” was published in this era. It was only recently that I decided to come back to the House of Ideas, just because of the Marvel NOW! relaunch. The writers and editors at Marvel today seem more passionate and in sync about their visions for the 616 universe than ever before.

Lost Generation’s retcon of Stephen Strange being active back in the 1960s, ahead of the rest of the MU, is still canon I believe (the rationale was that by the time we see his first comics appearance he’s already Nightmare’s archfoe, which indicates he’s been at it a while).
The ending of Lost Generation (or beginning) shows Reed, Bruce and Hank Pym’s initial experiments (I think they’re referring to Hank attempting to immunize people against fallout in the first Ant-Man story) as being a response to almost all of Earth’s pre-FF heroes getting wiped out in the series, leaving us vulnerable if the Skrulls returned. I presume the Gamma Laser was meant to shoot down space ships, but yeah, not a good retcon (Igor as Skrull: Worse), nor needed.
While I’m far from a Byrne fan (and agree that for someone who talks a lot about respecting the original creators, he often plays fast-and-loose [and that's not even getting into whether they're always right. The Etrigan as Merlin's brother origin, for example, worked much better than Kirby's original I think]), he and Stern did a great job on Lost Generation. It’s a shame more wasn’t done with it, or with Stern’s Monster Hunters.

PAD several times saved the Hulk, thanks to him for that

I liked Peter David’s story because it took existing characters, plots, etc, and gave them an extra dimension without substantially changing the essence of them. I haven’t read the Byrne story, but it seems like it changes the story for the worse.

John has commented on this in the past as one would suspect. Here is a quote from one of those times.

What difference does it make if Igor is a Russian or a Skrull? Writers before me — most notably Roy Thomas — had already established a Skrull presence on Earth long before FF2. By the time I did that HULK ANNUAL, “Russian spies” belonged to a past age. If Igor’s bosses were in the Kremlin or on the Skrull throneworld, it makes no difference to the Hulk’s origin — only to those aspects of the story which lock it into a time that had receded too far beyond the “bubble” in which Marvel’s universe exists.

Fraser, the other point is that by the time of Strange’s first battle with Nightmare, he’s already well known as a sorcerer, even though none of his battles were public. It takes a while for word of mouth to spread.
The reason for the gamma laser retcon is that the Hulk’s origin has been an anachronism almost since it was published- the United States stopped above-ground nuclear testing in November of 1962. But as mentioned above, changing it from a bomb to a laser does too much damage to Hulk continuity, and there’s no plausible way for Rick to unknowingly sneak into an underground or underwater test.

The Original Jimmy

March 9, 2013 at 3:52 pm

I like John Byrne’s Hulk Origins tweaking in the Hulk Annual. And while I love the original Lee/ Kirby tale it’s aged badly if you’re trying to keep the characters current. The Cold War is too distant and now irrelevant in Marvel’s characters origins. And while I love David (I’m just retreading his old DC Star Trek run right now) I never cared for his version of the Hulk, and thought his meta message critique of this annual in Captain Marvel (which I loved) was pretty childish at the time. I don’t care if Byrne deserved it or not. The fact is grown adults should be better than that. Just do your job and leave your personal gripes at the door.

That Lee Weeks art is typically fantastic. I really wish that guy would do more comics.

The above ground test is a bit of a ‘problem’ but there are ways to get around that with out going gamma laser route. For one thing Marvel gamma radiation and our gamma radiation are two different things.

The Cold War aspect is easy to get around, too. Russia has not been communist for several years, but the later government and businesses are not angels, either. Igor could have been working for a private group or a shadow government. He could have been working for a new communist movement for that matter, one that was trying to get power back, like Marvel’s Nazi villains were in the 60s/ten years ago Marvel time.

Actually, Marvel could do a Silver Age revision event where ‘communism’ is replaced by some other movement or evil league that had its tentacles in several foreign government and operated as a shadow government…

Andy E. Nystrom:
“It wouldn’t count precisely because no one’s touching it. Ironically the lack of desire to touch it makes it pretty much bulletproof for retcons. As long as no one establishes it didn’t happen, it’s still canon. The Black Fox (Lost Generation version) has an entry in the 2011 Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe softcover vol. 1, which reprinted the earlier hardcover series with updates. There was no update retconning the Black Fox, so Lost Generation was still confirmed as canon as of September 2011.”

The only thing about the Official Handbooks is that I’m pretty sure the entries in there are fan-complied. The folks over at the Marvel Universe Appendix website have indicated that they’ve been contributing to the pubs for years now. (See the bios at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appmasts.htm.) So although the Handbooks have the label “official” on them, I take it that they’re only official to the extent that Marvel has published them. On occasion, they can quickly get at-odds with established continuity. I remember when the 2004 Hulk handbook came out, they went into a lot of detail on the Bruce Jones run, which was almost immediately retconned when PAD came back on the book. My guess is, nobody at main Marvel editorial decided to check with those guys on the entries–why would they?

Anyway, my recollection is that post-LOST GENERATION references has been almost exclusively limited to handbooks, where a fan-reader with more interest in continuity than a Marvel editor is going to be writing it. Beyond that, Yeti showed up in Byrne’s X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS, but that was him using one series as an opportunity to tie up a loose end from another. Beyond that, I understand that Pixie showed up in the ETERNALS comic a few years ago–the only non-Byrne/Handbook use of a LG character that I know. Hence, I’m almost willing to call LG “Abandoned” by sheer lack of use.

One should note that the early 1980′s Huk cartoon also substitued extraterrestrial interlopers for the sabotage when retelling the origin. Perhaps using Hydra as a substitute could work?

Tony Isabella noted that he redacted many reprints to refer to Bodavia for the British reprints.

What the heck happened to the Crimson Dynamo?!? Was his head bitten off, or did his helmet fall off??? How come no one is asking this important question?

What the heck happened to the Crimson Dynamo?!? Was his head bitten off, or did his helmet fall off??? How come no one is asking this important question?

Basically the former. What Gallaher cleverly set up in the series (okay, I actually don’t know if he set it up or if it had already been established by a previous writer) is that to explain why Winter Guard members keep showing up after they seemingly were killed/left the team (which in reality is simply a matter of writers not paying attention to the somewhat obscure Winter Guard) is that they are replaced by new members with similar powers (sometimes even before the mission ends, so no one knows that a team member died during the mission). The Crimson Dynamo is, indeed, killed in that fight. We meet the new one a couple of pages later.

However, I think he was eaten whole and the helmet just was thrown to the ground in the devouring.

Man, that origin sequence for the Hulk is just so damn good. Kirby just kills it. It’s probably only behind Amazing Fantasy 15 for me.

I don’t really see the big deal about Igor being a skrull, either. The laser thing is more problematic, but whatever.

Peter David and Dale Keown. Two great things that go even better together. Yeah, Skrulls? Peter David even made fun of it in his Captain Marvel book. I love Byrne, too. But that and that other Chapter One thing was his worst.

Adam, even the original Marvel handbook got retconned away fairly fast. For example, it stated the Black Cat had probability-altering powers but before long she revealed in Spider-Man that she had no powers and it was all just a bluff (the letter-column explained that well, she said she had powers, so naturally the Handbook assumed it was true, but now we know the facts!). Not to mention all the Dead and Retired people who came back into action eventually.
Which is one reason not to count the First Line as abandoned/forsaken just because they’re not used. Most of the Agents of Atlas had gone unused for years but then they got a new lease on life.
I agree with KDU that it’s not hard to explain everything as a hard-line Communist faction or a rogue group–pop culture has done that for years as the Soviet threat softened (Telefon, the KGBeast, the Red conspiracy in Salt). I suspect eventually this will run out of steam (Nazi villains may run forever) but not for a while. Given how many Red villains Marvel has used over the years, it’s not as if turning just one of them into a Skrull solves things.
Byrne’s argument I disagree with. There are lots of ways to update the Cold War aspect with human villains but changing it to Skrulls really alters the overtones (and not for the better). And David’s look back at Igor was outstanding (I greatly loved his Hulk run until we got to the Pantheon. And I’m not much of a Hulk fan generally).

Fraser: That’s odd, because there was a relatively recent story about Felicia getting her probability-altering powers back. She had them, then they were taken away, then they got reinstalled. As far as I can recall, originally she had no powers, but then some tampering by the Kingpin gave her her bad luck powers. Was this bluff that you’re talking about before that, maybe, when she still actually had no powers?

Adam:
“The only thing about the Official Handbooks is that I’m pretty sure the entries in there are fan-complied. The folks over at the Marvel Universe Appendix website have indicated that they’ve been contributing to the pubs for years now. (See the bios at http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appmasts.htm.) So although the Handbooks have the label “official” on them, I take it that they’re only official to the extent that Marvel has published them. On occasion, they can quickly get at-odds with established continuity. I remember when the 2004 Hulk handbook came out, they went into a lot of detail on the Bruce Jones run, which was almost immediately retconned when PAD came back on the book. My guess is, nobody at main Marvel editorial decided to check with those guys on the entries–why would they?”

Well, sure many of the writers are fans of the material and likely their contributions to that website helped land them the job. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t professional once they land the job. Many of the writers hang out at Who Watches the Watchers (http://www.comixfan.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=375) (I do hang out there a lot myself but am not part of the Handbook team) and often on that site they make reference to the fact that they do consult with editorial as needed. Here’s one quote from that site regarding one of the hardcovers: “Keep in mind, too, that space is limited — we’ve only got so many volumes, and both the writing team and Marvel’s internal production/editorial team can only devote so many hours to the project..” (http://www.comixfan.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45092&page=5). Another thing they repeatedly say is that they can’t officially answer certain questions because there’s not a Handbook coming out that would allow them to answer a particular question. So that’s my evidence that they do consult with editorial. Do you have any source to the contrary?

“Anyway, my recollection is that post-LOST GENERATION references has been almost exclusively limited to handbooks, where a fan-reader with more interest in continuity than a Marvel editor is going to be writing it. Beyond that, Yeti showed up in Byrne’s X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS, but that was him using one series as an opportunity to tie up a loose end from another. Beyond that, I understand that Pixie showed up in the ETERNALS comic a few years ago–the only non-Byrne/Handbook use of a LG character that I know. Hence, I’m almost willing to call LG “Abandoned” by sheer lack of use.”

I would argue that the appearance of Pixie is further evidence that the series *is* still canon. Also, when Brian does one of these, he always shows the pages where the retcon occurs (so if he were to do what you suggest, he’d show pages of a comic where some character basically said, “Nah, it didn’t happen like that. There’s no Lost Generation.”). Since the issue is lack of use, it doesn’t fit the framework.

Marvel also has other stuff they don’t use for one reason or another but still consider canon. Joe Quesada stated that he’d love to use the Ultraverse characters again, but the deal that was made makes that next to impossible. The guy who created Charcoal for a Thunderbolts fan contest went after Marvel for the copyright and now Marvel won’t touch Charcoal anymore either, except where it’s unavoidable (like showing Charcoal in a Thunderbolts Handbook entry). It doesn’t mean they didn’t still happen; it just means that Marvel can’t (Ultraverse) or won’t (Charcoal) dip into that well again.

Exactly Buttler. In her early stories, whenever Spidey tried catching her, something would go wrong–a fire escape breaks away, something collapses, whatever–which Felicia implied was some kind of super-jinx ability (“Never let the Black Cat cross your path.”). After they become a couple she revealed that no, she simply scoped out her crime scenes so that she knew where the rusted fire escapes, unstable stockroom shelves etc. were, and maneuvered herself so everything fell on Spider-Man. The handbook came before the revelation and assumed her jinx-powers were a fact. Which was then contradicted, which rather devalued the officialness of the book.

Is that the first Handbook from 1983, or the second from 1986?

The original.

Peter David’s response to this in the pages of Captain Marvel was priceless.

Sigh, ok–the Lost Generation “still exists” to the extent that one character made one non-Byrne appearance somewhere. I think my larger point is that we may simply never see these characters again due to a lack of interest. They may be difficult to retcon explicitly outside of a character actually saying “First Line? No, there never was a First Line.” Rather, we may simply get a fiat from someone like Quesada or Breevort simply declaring that the story didn’t happen (much like what happened to MARVEL: THE END, where Breevort editorially declared that the story never happened, only something just like it).

Part of the problem is that Lost Generation created its own problem. The concern was that Marvel’s sliding timescale created a growing “gap” between World War II and FF #1. This gap wasn’t a concern at modern Marvel’s inception–Reed fought in WW2, Tony Stark went to Vietnam–but the references to specific dates made less sense as time went on. Problem is, Lost Generation itself tied itself to specific events: the moon landing, Watergate, etc. If Marvel always started “10 years ago,” then LG currently ended in 2003, which no longer makes sense given the ending’s proximity to Watergate. Though not explicit, it’s heavily implied that LG ended somewhere in the 1980s–which made sense at the time, being 10 years before its 1999 publication date. Thanks to Byrne’s theory, LG dated itself pretty quickly after it wrapped up.

My point is that I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop–that Breevort or somebody else simply says the story didn’t happen (though maybe Pixie still exists thanks to her Eternals appearance). That might be one of the reasons Marvel still hasn’t reprinted the series–they might have no desire to consider it “canon” anymore, so why revisit it? (I do wonder if that’s why they stopped reprinting the Bruce Jones HULK comics–or maybe that was driven purely by poor sales on the first two collections. Oh well.)

Adam, not being used is simply not the same as “abandoned” or retconned out. Assuming that someday in the future it will be–well, you can’t use that as an argument it already counts as retconned.
It’s true there’s a gap as time goes by, but I think it’s easier to tinker with a team that doesn’t have much in the way of ties to the modern Marvel age than with, say Reed or Ben. The First Line went through more than one incarnation, so it’s not much of a stretch to add another, and it won’t impact modern continuity too much.
Conversely, we can assume there was a long gap after the eighties–maybe the First Line’s disappearance really did sour everyone on super-heroes for a while.

Fraser, perhaps I haven’t been clear–I haven’t said that they’ve been explicitly abandoned or retconned, just that they’ve been so underused that Marvel might very well declare them to be given the nature of the story. I concede that the book may be premature for an “Abandoned and Forsaked” column, but I repeat my post prior to yours: we “may” get an editorial declaration that the book no longer stands. “May.” Clear now?

(This HULK annual notwithstanding–to the extent that this story stands as a prelude/aftermath to Lost Generation, it’s clearly out.)

It’s definitely possible it might be abandoned someday but I can also see Marvel saying, “Well, it’s not really hurting anything to keep it in.” Tying it to specific events is a bit problematic due to the sliding timescale, but so are the Christmas issues and the 9-11 issue of Amazing Spider-Man. What borderline cases Marvel does and doesn’t decide to keep as canon is a bit of a crapshoot: During the 1980s one would probably have gotten laughed at for asking if the Hostess ads were canon, but a passing reference to Icemaster stealing confectioneries during Fear Itself suggests that his Hostess ad is at least partly canon (though probably not *exactly* as per the ad). So in terms of Lost Generation I can easily see that going either way down the road, or even getting retconned out and then being put back in later on.

I’ve noticed lately this sight has gotten a lot of Chinese spam. I finally got curious and copied and pasted the two Chinese posts in this article into Google Translator. The one from March 10, 2013 at 10:12 am is outright bizarre, like a story written on a bad drug trip (part of it I’m sure is translation issues but that might not be the full story).. You probably don’t want to go to the URL but the translation is quite entertaining.

Ah the First Line. I did love it and still do. Wasn’t aware the First Line’s Pixie ever showed up even in the Eternals story would’ve read it if I knew. The team’s essentially been abandoned true but Kevin Grevioux did mention that had he been able to tell more stories with Adam, The Blue Marvel Adam would’ve had some story relating to the First Line as being a hero from the 60′s and stayed throughout the Marvel universe until the present they would’ve had chances to encounter one another.

The discussion of Byrne-Bashing at the top of the comments got me thinking. I don’t know if this has legs, but what about a post/feature/whatever where we highlight the most polarizing creators in comics? These would be the ones who, just by being mentioned in an article, are sure to bring plenty of both strong detractors and staunch supporters (just off the top of my head: Byrne, Ennis, Moore, Miller, Stan Lee, Jim Lee, Morrison, Shooter, Claremont, etc.).

Obviously we have plenty of praise for the almost universally beloved creators (Kirby, Joe Kubert, Eisner, PAD), and an article written just to talk trash on unpopular creators (Liefeld, Harras, Austen) just seems mean-spirited. At the very least, I guarantee it would have one of the longest and most heated comment sections in CSBG history, and that’s saying a lot!

What was Byrne thinking…?

Potentially interesting parallel: Reed (“You made a mistake, Victor”) Richards and Igor vs. Victor von Doom and Bruce (“I don’t make errors”) Banner.

Cue The Most Interesting Man In The Marvel Universe: “I don’t always make errors, but when I do… wow.”

David & Byrne really have to find a way to bitch at each other without retconning comic stories.

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