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Abandoned Love: So is Sandman a Good Guy or a Bad Guy or What?

Every week, we will be examining comic book stories, plots and ideas that were abandoned by a later writer while still acknowledging that the abandoned story DID still happen. Click here for an archive of all the previous editions of Abandoned Love. Feel free to e-mail me at bcronin@comicbookresources.com if you have any suggestions for future editions of this feature.

This time around, based on a suggestion by reader Gareth J., we take a look at Sandman’s journey from villain to hero to, well, villain again…

The Sandman was a recurring villain for decades in the Marvel Universe. First as a Spider-Man foe and then even more so as a Fantastic Four villain as a member of the Frightful Four. The first sign of humanity in the Sandman came in Marvel Team-Up #1, where the Sandman fought Spider-Man and the Human Torch at Christmastime…

He soon was right back to being a villain, though.

In 1982, though, after Sandman got through being merged with Hydro-Man, Tom DeFalco changed things in Marvel Two-in-One #86…

The Thing is called to the bar, and he finds Sandman odder than normal…

The Sandman tells him his origin, some parts of which resonate with Ben Grimm…

And in the end…

Ten issues later, Ben is near death in the hospital after his battle with the Champion in the classic Marvel Two-in-One Annual #2. The Mad Thinker plans it so that some villain is able to get to Ben while he is still defenseless. The Mad Thinker is surprised to see WHICH villain it is, though…

Sandman’s heroic journey is brought to a head in Amazing Spider-Man #338, where he is blackmailed into joining Doctor Octopus’ Sinister Six only to stand up to his former boss…

He gets turned into glass for his troubles and in the next issue, Spidey chooses to save him over catching Doc Ock…

A few months later, Sandman’s journey is completed when he gets a pardon and joins the Avengers in Avengers #329…

His reserve membership is not used very often and soon after he gets a steadier gig working for Silver Sable as part of her Wild Pack (here he is in #1 of the Silver Sable and the Wild Pack series)…

That series lasted a few years and then came Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 2) #4, by Howard Mackie and John Byrne, where he see that the Thing has been keeping tack of Sandman for awhile now, never really trusting him…

And his suspicions prove accurate later in the issue…

Eight issues later, in Peter Parker: Spider-Man #12 (I say eight issues later since Amazing and Peter Parker were on the same schedule), Tom Brevoort explains Sandman’s heel turn by showing that the Wizard effectively turned him evil…

Nice of Brevoort to provide an explanation like that.

That’s it for this week! If YOU have a suggestion for a dropped plotline/character arc, e-mail me at bcronin@comicbookresources.com!


Great post. I remember as a teenager loving the idea of Sandman on the Avengers only to have him used in like 2 issues and an annual. That really frustrated me at the time. I think it was Larry Hama who was writing. It was the one good thing about his otherwise poor run and it was dropped.

So…was this a decision from Marvel editorial, or was it John Byrne doing his mumblings about getting “back to basics” and going out of his way yet again to undo other writers’ hard work?

Sorry, I grew up on Sandman’s face turn in Spider-Man and teaming up with Hawkeye in Solo Avengers so this bugs me more than it should.

I’ve long thought that reverting the Sandman back was a case of taking an interesting concept and reverting back to the road previously travelled. And certainly the Mud-Thing story did provide a logical trauma for him to re-evaluate things. Hopefully with the cyclical nature of comics the Wizard’s brainwashing will become undone. It could even make for interesting conflict: Sandman is reformed again but POed that the heroes accepted his return to evil and that the Wild Pack in particular didn’t do more to help him. Plenty of opportunities for him to again try to figure out how to redefine himself.

Where’s Sandman now?

nice for thought sandman really was more worthy of a trying to be a hero espically given how he told spiderman and the torch that after he was done with his mother to get him plus the fact he did not kill the thing in the hospital and really wanted to change. plus nice to know the switch to bad guy was just old mind control by a another villain this time the trapster.

To be honest, even though I grew up reading Sandman as more of a good guy or tweener, he’s always felt like a villain to me. I think if you bounce back and forth that much, it’s hard as a reader to ever trust the guys motivations. Marvel would do the same thing with Venom throughout the 90s, though at least in that case, a heel turn could always be explained with “the symbiote made me do it.” With Sandman, I just never understood the slow burn turn.

As far as I’m concerned, the Sandman is still reformed (I don’t read current Marvel titles). Byrne & Mackie’s series sucked, having him flip back to evil after all those years was weak.

VichusSmith, he was recently picked up by Spidey-Ock in his sand form, seemingly unconscious or severely weakened. Ock has also captured Electro as well.

In the first few issues of the Busiek-Perez Avengers run, Sandman is with the team as a good guy. Where does that appearance fit in the foregoing timeline?

“If that’s good enough for Nixon, that’s good enough for Sandman.” LOL.

Sandman worked with Doc Ocks last Sinister Six in the Ends of the Earth story in ASM. Spider Ock now has him captivity (as of Avenging Spider Man 17).

I liked the idea of Sandman being reformed, too. I was disappointed when he became a villain again. I was rooting for him in Amazing Spider Man 348 when he called in the Avengers and then quit the team after a misunderstanding (I think it was then that he joined the Wild Pack ).

haha…there you go…Neil Gaiman can write a Sandman book for Marvel. Right after the one for DC comes out.

@ Cei-U!
That Avengers story was one year (our time) before the Byrne/Mackie story made him a villain again. Hope no one beat me to the punch this time.

“That Avengers story was one year (our time) before the Byrne/Mackie story made him a villain again. ”

Yeah, my understanding is all stories where he appears to be a good guy he’s being sincere, with any claims he later makes to the contrary the result of his brainwashing..

John Byrne feels that Sandman getting a pardon was bad writing. One of the times he talked about it, he had this to say. From his website in 2010:

“Some of you may recall that, a few years back, weary of the Sandman-is-basically-misunderstood crap, I actually called the FBI and asked what it would take to get on their 10 Most Wanted list, as Sandman was stated to be in his first appearance.

The answer was that list is reserved for terrorists, mass murderers and child murderers.

That must’ve been some “Oops! My Bad!” the Sandman came up with, huh?”

What John was either not aware of or just ignored is that at the time Sandman was introduced, the top 10 most wanted list contained criminals you were not murders and had done things such as rob banks only.

Byrne went even farther than this in Spider-Man: Chapter One’s Annual, where he revealed that Sandman had never been William Baker; Baker was a gentler, reforming type who happened to look like Marko. They met while incarcerated, and Marko duped, betrayed, and killed Baker in order to escape prison and steal his civilian ID for his own purposes. When Marvel effectively threw out Chapter One, this went with it, and Sandman’s real name is once again William Baker. Peter David’s Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man seems to have cemented things.

However, the brainwashing probably won’t be undone. Zeb Wells and Sam Keith did a story late in the second volume of Peter Parker: Spider-Man where Sandman’s personality fragmented, releasing the good William Baker side and the vicious Flint Marko side. By the end of that tale, the Sandman had reintegrated himself…minus the good Baker persona, who crumbled away to nothing while the rest of the Sandman looked on and laughed. A few stories before and since that one, such as Thunderbolts v.1 #40 and The Thing v.2 #6 have shown the Sandman brainwashing stuff and hinted that the guy only hazily recalls it and is prevented form reforming again by the Wizard’s programming.

The comments on this have got me thinking…

How many of Spidey’s rogues have either been shown or been stated to be murderers?

I’d wondered why Sandman had gone bad again. Not knowing exactly why that was, it seemed kind of stupid to me, because his slow redemption was really heartening and well handled. Now that I know how it happened, it’s even stupider than I imagined.

I was incredibly disappointed when Sandman was turned evil again. I’d rather enjoyed having him as a hero. At least the excuse that he was brainwashed makes it a bit easier and dangles a possible thread of hope that someday he can be restored, but in the meantime, his action figure remains in my Avengers display in a place of honor.

Yeah, I doubt he’d ever be good again, but darn it, I can dream.

@Trevor: Restricting myself to the major foes, it seems that pretty much all the “name” villains are.

the Chameleon: Became a killer sometime in the 1980s when David Michelinie and Todd McFarlane revampd him, and hasn’t stopped since.

The Tinkerer: Killed at least one person, Alice Hart, and helped the supernatural Judge Hart kill many others to try and hide from his own guilt in the Deadline miniseries.

The Vulture: Killed Gregory Bestman in Spectacular Spider-Man v.1 #186, and more recently he’s killed defiant underlings by shutting off their flight packs in midair.

Doctor Octopus (Otto Octavius): Has often been shown killing folks with his tentacles or other methods since the early 1980s at least.

Sandman: John Byrne had him as a killer in a story since ignored for other reasons; some of his fragmentary personalities killed several people during The Gauntlet storyline.

the Lizard: Became a killer under Calypso’s mind control, but has since been quite happy killin’ folks all on his own.

Electro: Has killed several people as of Marvel Knights Spider-Man #3 and The Gauntlet storyline.

the Enforcers: I don’t think they’ve ever succeeded at killing anyone, except for Ox when he worked for the Kingpin for a while. Besides, Fancy Dan is too awesome to go all grim and gritty.

Mysterio (Quentin Beck): He became a murderer in Kevin Smith’s Dardevil and has been rather murderous ever since.

Green Goblin (Norman Osborn): Started out trying to kill Spider-Man and later killed Gwen Stacy. (Yes, yes, the webline and the snap and hoo-hah, but in terms of the legal code and any sane person’s morality, Norman directly caused her death by knocking her off of a bridge; Spider-Man simply failed to save her, since she’d have been just as dead if she’d hit the water from that height.) Has long since become a multiple and even mass murderer.

Kraven the Hunter: Yep, he’s been a killer since — of all things — a Tigra story in Marvel Chillers where he brutally wipes out his own gang for failing him.

Scorpion (Mac Gargan): Became a successful killer in the mid-1990s, when Roxxon Oil gave him a tail with a neurotoxin and used him in black ops stuff. Became a cannibal killer under the influence of the Venom symbiote.

Beetle: Killed a guy in the Deadly Foes of Spider-Man miniseries, and again in the Web of Doom mini. Since served jail time for one of the murders and has reformed as Mach-whatever-it’s-up-to-now.

Rhino: Became a killer at some point, and more recently a rather nihilistic one after his wife was murdered by a wannabe Rhino.

Shocker: Had a weird appearance in Web of Spider-Man #10 where Danny Fingeroth wrote him as a hired assassin with a Bond villain sort of lair, but otherwise he’s usually not a murderer.

Kingpin: Definitely a killer.

Silvermane: A Maggia ganglord and definitely a killer by implication at the least.

Richard Fisk: Famously, as the Rose he crossed the line by shooting a police officer while escaping during the Gang War storyline, which left him tortured by guilt; later, as Blood Rose, he adopted a “shoot first, ask questions later” sort of policy.

Morbius: A killer from his first appearance, albeit a reluctant one.

Hammerhead: Again, established as murderous from the start and has since been seen killing.

Green Goblin (Harry): I don’t think he ever succeeded in killing anyone else, but it wasn’t for lack of trying during his resurgence in the J.M. DeMatteis era of Spectacular Spider-Man.

Hydro-Man: Drowned a diner full of people in an otherwise lighthearted Zeb Wells story; killed some government agents and a Russian mobster in Priest’s Black Panther series, where he also tried to fulfill a contract on the Panther by crashing an entire airliner full of people into Washington DC.

Hobgoblin (any): They’ve all killed folks, as have most of the Goblin villains.

Venom (Eddie Brock): Always a murderer, but his first on-pane crime was killing a Vault guard in his second storyline.

Carnage: You have to ask?

Mister Negative: A mass murderer since his first storyline.

I hated when Sandman was reverted back to a villain. His path to redemption was well done.

I found it little surprise when it turned out Byrne was involved. It seems like there isn’t an idea that Byrne isn’t willing to retcon, if it doesn’t fit with his limited and set view of a character.

Sadly, one of the largest retcons Marvel might benefit from would be to retcon most of Byrne’s retcons.

Omar- great research. I would like to add that for most of these guys the actual on panel murders were probably just detail, most of them have had no problem attempting murder (and not just Spider-Man) a long time before that.

Also Norman killed (heart attack, but he shot him) Mendel Stromm in Amazing Spider-Man #37.

Reed got Sandman his job with Silver Sable??? I could’ve sworn Sable recruited him herself right after he came to her aid against the Sinister Syndicate in Amazing #280-something (a three-part story that was Sable’s second appearance). Then Sable tracked him down to his home to hire him permanently in #303. This was all long before he joined the Avengers.
Maybe Reed was the one who gave Sable his address. That’s the only way I can think that he could’ve been responsible.

There are two-storey bungalows?

Even in recent years, not everyone on the FBI Top 10 most wanted list was a murderer or terrorist. As bad of a guy as Warren Jeffs is, he never killed anyone. I’m not sure Sandman has either. And besides, who says the FBI of the Marvel Universe of the 1960s has the same methodology as the real FBI of the 21st century anyway? Byrne was just making excuses for his character destruction.

Or at least, not sure he had at the time of that story’s publication. Omar listed some times he has since then.

This is one of the dumbest reversals in comics history. It may have been the dumbest prior to December 2007.

Omar: Great list! I never really thought of the Beetle as a Spider-Man villain. But I guess he fought Spidey from time to time, like everyone did.

But are you just going to leave us hanging about the Molten Man, the Spot, White Rabbit and Stegron the Dinosaur Man?

The Original Jimmy

March 29, 2013 at 3:22 pm

Poor Sandy was always just misunderstood. Even that first example where he shows his “first signs of humanity” by visiting his mom, just after he’s attempted to MURDER Spider-Man and the Torch by tying them up and trying to drown them in an exotic form of bondage-torture. But Spidey and Torch just let him go with an “Aawww shucks, we’ll catch up with him later.”

Trying to make Sandman a misunderstood villain/ working class hero always seemed utterly incomprehensible to me when taken into account how many times he’d tried to murder superheroes, and injured members of the public and law enforcement during his escapades. I’m with Byrne on this one.

It’s as stupid as “redeeming” Jason Todd/ Red Hood and forgetting the decapitated criminals he left in his wake, and the utterly incomprehensible idea that Captain America would allow a mass murderer like Wolverine on to the Avengers roster. But comics never make sense. That’s why we love them so much.

I’m thinking that Sandman’s psyche is breaking down because he’s fighting Wizard’s re-programming. Sandman’s appearance in “Sandblasted” had him working with Spidey to prove his father was being framed for murder. During “The Gauntlet”, he became obsessed with protecting a little girl and giving her everything she wanted, and had delusions of being her protector. However, some of his sand doubles had killed the girl’s mother without Baker being aware of it, so it sounds like his mind is in conflict with being good “William” and bad “Flint”.

Hopefully, a future Spider-Man writer will re-visit this and fix (retcon) Sandman so that he breaks Wizard’s programming and reforms for again for good (or at least until some other writer decides to retcon that)

I was really annoyed at this too. Byrne seemed to approach Spider-Man with a whole “Things aren’t as I remember them from my childhood, so I need to put them back” attitude.

Of course, he also had Mary Jane apparently killed in a plane crash to break up the marriage. You’d think Marvel would have learned from the fan outcry on that one.

I don’t mind either the face/heel turn for Sandman. Many, many criminals slip back into crime after legitimate attempts at reforming, and it would make sense that a man in-deep as crime as the Sandman once was would find it difficult to adjust to a normal life (even if his superpowers allow him to do things most ex-criminals can’t do). I do dislike the idea of him being brainwashed into going back, I think just him admitting it was best for him or most comfortable would have been better (I haven’t read Flash in a while, but weren’t some of the reformed Flash Rogues’ face turns retconned in the same way?)

In addition to the examples Omar mentioned, the Sinister Six killed countless people in Larsen’s Revenge of the Sinister Six storyline.

Venom also killed a cop in Amazing 300

Even that first example where he shows his “first signs of humanity” by visiting his mom, just after he’s attempted to MURDER Spider-Man and the Torch by tying them up and trying to drown them in an exotic form of bondage-torture.

It IS weird that that was listed as an example of him trying to let them go, wink wink nudge nudge, when the trap he left them in was extremely deadly. I think I even listed that as an honorable mention when I did the goofiest moments of the first five issues of Marvel Team-Up.

The Original Jimmy

March 30, 2013 at 12:03 am

@ Brian

Marvel Team-Up and Two-in-One are two of my all time favourite titles BECAUSE of that bizarre goofiness. But even that first issue boggles the mind. That example always reminds me of that Austin Powers scene where Dr Evil’s son keeps complaining about his Dad’s elaborate traps, and that he should just instead shoot them. The time and effort it took “Sandy” ( let’s give an endearing nickname to a guy trying to kill us) to tie them up and hang them in the water tank when he’s desperate to see his mom ASAP is also really goofy. But I love it.

And for some bizarre reason that He-Man Masters of the Universe Sandman costume is my favourite one too. MTU and MTIO have obviously damaged my psyche.

Those first two issues of Two-In-One and the subsequent issue of Team-Up where Sandman saves Spidey from the Enforcers were my introduction to the character. I don’t remember him as anything but reformed and that’s how he should have stayed.

The concept itself isn’t that farfetched: Marvel eventually published a hit series about it called Thunderbolts.

Wow, so Byrne decided Sandman wasn’t really good at heart because Stan Lee misunderstood exactly how the 10 Most Wanted List worked? No offense meant to Stan, since his stories are still some of the best, but it seemed he misunderstood a lot of technical details. Why not just gloss over that one line like they do with so many other things that don’t stand up to scrutiny?

There’s no way ASM 37 was drawn with the intent that Mendell Stromm had a heart attack after a failed shooting. One of the most ridiculous bits of Stan Lee dialogue that presumably helped drive Ditko away from Marvel later that month. Osborn shot him dead!

Like many other readers, I liked Sandman as a reformed figure, and I was certainly disappointed when Byrne decided to turn him back into a villain. I keep hoping one of these days someone at Marvel will undo the Wizard’s brainwashing and old Flint Marko can go back to being a good guy.

In terms of that story where he lost the good part of his psyche, if Marvel really wants a good Sandman again, there’s two ways they can go about it: explain that that good part is still out there somehow, or do what they do when they want Thing to lose his powers again after he’s been stuck as the Thing permanently: just decide that enough time has passed that they can just ignore the tricky part.

I vastly prefer the reformed/redeemed Sandman–ditto Magneto. Both were pretty long character arcs that I think made sense, and while most villains stay bad guys, it was very cool seeing a couple of them actually gradually change over a period of years. I note that Byrne was involved in the revillainizing of both.

I want to add to the chorus.
I think the reform was presented in a natural, evolved way that respected the character…. okay, in a corny, ’80s comic booky way, but still.
Look at Ben Grimm sliding him the money in the bar, that felt real.
This side of him as a man with heart was shown well in the last Sam Raimi Spider-man movie.
For whatever its faults, it’s hard for me to erase the image of Thomas Haden Church as Sandy thanking Spidey for helping him save his daughter or whatever.
You could feel his feelings as a dad.

I think what bugs me is when editors or management people deep-six natural character evolution because they think it might take away from some winning formula that made the company money in some heyday..
In reality, it just stagnates the creative potential of the characters, and reinforces comics as predictable, easily dismissed time-filler that nobody normal should care about.
If Spidey didn’t have heart, we wouldn’t have loved him like we do, in spite of his cool costume.
Sandman has heart, and needs to be free from stagnant editorial thinking.
Let him go, comic book guys… his stories will generate more money than the bad guy sandbox where nobody ever grows up.

This is one of the biggest examples that superhero comics don’t believe in reforming supervillains. They keep them as bad guys because that’s they’re better known as villains. If writers can’t create new, compelling villains they just bring back old ones, repeating the same cycle as always. Some bad guys can’t be reformed, and should face justice for their crimes. But this was one missed opportunity to write something good and inspiring.

I’ve always loved Sandy. Don’t know why exactly. I remember those old Spidey cartoons and his episodes were my favorite.

His transformation into a good guy was awesome. I never really understood why Cap would go to bat for him. Was there a meeting or something? And the way things are now I just feel this was a missed opportunity by Marvel. There have been many Avengers who started out as villains, but usually after one or two apearences. It would have been nice to keep Sandy in the Avengers.

By God, I hope someone at Marvel reads this. I have no idea why they didn’t throw out Byrne’s change to Sandman when they threw out everything else. Anyone who read the issues of his reform could see that it was done really really well. Its also insulting and plain bad writing when a villain begins just murdering people just because he is a ‘villain’. If everyone in the world who broke the law also had no qualms about killing, we would be living in a pretty bleak society. It really bothers me when writers and editors (who should know better because its their freaking job) decide ‘that guy is a villain, so he will of course be a mass murderer’.

There seems to be a whole lot more villains who’ve gone good than there are heroes who’ve gone bad, at least permanently.

Let’s see, Moon Knight had a partner, Midnight, who turned up as an evil robot of some kind in Amazing Spider-Man, but that story was almost too stupid to count.. Not many examples of permanent change to the bad, unlike changes to the good like Hawkeye, Black Widow, Prowler, Vision, Jocasta, Venom, Huntarr and so many more!

What other heroes have become villains and more or less stayed that way?

Woohoo, thanks Brian! My first meeting with ol’ Sandy was his hospital visit to the Thing, quickly followed by the Enforcers story where he was trying to stay on the straight and narrow, so I was keen to know why he was suddenly a bad guy again after my long absence from Marvel (Clone Saga scrambled my brains, and a hugely depressing What If finished me off). It’s sad that creative teams frequently seem to err on the side of the status quo – reformed villains returning to crime, legacy heroes being bumped from the roster when the originals return to action, dead characters returning to life – I loved the Marvel Universe Book of the Dead from the mid-80s, as I’d no idea they’d killed off so many, but I reckon that the number of characters from those five volumes who are still dead 25+ years on could be counted on the fingers of Captain Hook’s bad hand!

But I digress. Huge appreciation for using the suggestion, I must try and win Six Degrees/Cover Theme Game one day soon… ;-)

Gareth, I actually track the current statuses of characters from the various Books of the Dead here: http://www.comixfan.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48813

“Keep your chin up, Torchy, and you’ll be okay”

A villain who deliberately gives explicit clues to his victims on how to escape from the “death trap” he has placed them in isn’t all bad (and the trap is thus revealed as being designed more to delay than kill).

I have a couple of reprints of that Marvel Team-Up #1…for whatever reason it is artistically one of my favorite books to look at…Andru just nailed it…and the story was fun too…

A villain who deliberately gives explicit clues to his victims on how to escape from the “death trap” he has placed them in isn’t all bad (and the trap is thus revealed as being designed more to delay than kill).

Right, but that’s the funny thing. That is evidence of him helping them out when it very easily could have been too obscure of a clue for them to figure out and then they would have died! When he could have just tied them up and that would have done the same job of delaying them! After all, they were unconscious! That was really all the delay he needed!

Among all the retcons provided by Byrne and Mackie, this is my most disliked one – after killing MJ, but thank God this one didn’t stick.

The idea of a former villain trying to go straight and helping his former foes now and then was one of my favorite things in 80-90s Spidey stories, and frankly was unmade through some kind of silly, technobabblish explanation.

This is a thing I frankly look forward for a continuity freak like Dan Slott to undo.

This is why I just can’t take Byrne seriously as a storyteller. Not only does Brevoort have to slap together a rushed explanation for Byrne ignoring years of characterization but it was also a stupid decision in the first place. “Reformed Villain” (especially as written by guys like DeFalco) is infinitely more interesting than “big dumb powerful villain” (it isn’t like there’s any shortage of those). Most stories with Sandman as a straight-up villain could have just as easily been told with someone like Hydro-Man in his place. Heck, they could have replaced Sandman with Quicksand and had a female sand-based villain that was smart enough to be a credible threat.

Instead progress is sacrificed for nostalgia.

“If that’s good enough for Nixon, it’s good enough for X” should be Captain America’s new catchphrase.


March 31, 2013 at 6:19 am

He is a hero in my book. I’d like to see him and Juggernaut become pals.

Response to Sidebar: Thanks Andy, I’ll have a look!

“Even in recent years, not everyone on the FBI Top 10 most wanted list was a murderer or terrorist.”

Being fair to Byrne, though, imagine how much worse than in-real-life a criminal would have to be to get on the top 10 most wanted list in the Marvel Universe.

Loved the reformed Sandman. His transformation from villain to hero was done slowly, over time, so it actually made sense. He was one of my favorite characters. Still pisses me off royalty that Byrne and Brevoort just threw it all away on a whim. It’s a perfect example of what’s been wrong with Marvel for a long time.

It’s funny in the Spider-verse that a guy whose catch phrase is “I want to eat your brains” is continually reformed, but a guy who can be caught by a vacuum cleaner has to be all bad.

The transformation to him being back to evil was very weak. still pissed off about it.


June 9, 2013 at 9:46 pm

he was always a villain!! i mean taking beers to a man in his death bed in a hospital??? pretty sick!

I loved the reform. Though I enjoyed Crusher Creel’s even more — his depressing realization he’s a complete loser who gets his butt kicked every time made him throwing in the towel pretty reasonable (and his efforts to keep his more criminal girlfriend happy were fun).

wikipedia says that Sandman contracted cancer..is dat true?? does anybody know when that happened (issue)??

I liked him more as agood guy !

@Michael P: what did happen in December 2007?

Cap seems to have forgotten he watched Nixon commit suicide.

Re: Omar Karindu – The Beetle only killed one guy, and that was in the Deadly Foes of Spider-Man book. The second guy he supposedly murdered in Web of Doom was already dead when Beetle used his body to frame Spider-Man for his murder. Or something. I got that mini-series at a convention last year and read them quickly after. Kind of wondered why the second one didn’t come up, until they explained it. Either way, he went to jail for the first murder in Thunderbolts, as you noted.

Have a good day.
John Cage

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