Read on if you don't mind being spoiled about the first issue of Venom: Dark Origin!

An Underscorigin is when a writer (always after the fact) comes up with an origin for a character that underscores later character traits.

It is not ALWAYS cheezy, but most of the time, it is pretty cheezy.

In Venom: Dark Origin #1, we learn that Eddie Brock has been lying to make himself look good his entire life, which underscores the fact that that is how he becomes Venom - he lied about who the Sin-Eater was and was called on it and had his career as a reporter ruined because he was caught in the lie.

Another recent underscorigin was also a Spider-Man villain, as the origin of the Sandman included lots an lots of references to sand in his childhood.

19 Comments

• At August 6, 2008, Scavenger wrote:

  Ah, so we have a term for what Peter David did in that Sandman story...and in most of his retellings. ...

• At August 6, 2008, Kelson @ Speed Force wrote:

  Geoff Johns' spotlight issue on Captain Cold is another good example. It shows his unhappy childhood, where the only ...

• At August 6, 2008, joshschr wrote:

  Would you apply this to the origin of almost every Batman villain? The Scarecrow sticks out most in my ...

• At August 6, 2008, Blackjak wrote:

  Sounds like the preview blurb for Superman/Batman... Something about Jor-El and Thomas Wayne meeting before they had kids to ...

• At August 6, 2008, Dalarsco wrote:

  I actually found that Jor-El/Thomas Wayne story funny in a very dark way. Here they were planning for their ...

• At August 6, 2008, todd young wrote:

  lol...so now every villan has an excuse as to why he's bad?

  no one just wants to be the villian for ...

• At August 6, 2008, Brian Cronin wrote:

  I liked the Thomas Wayne/Jor-El meeting, for the most part.

  It was the type of story you'd see frequently during the ...

• At August 6, 2008, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  The only thing that put me off a bit was Wayne reverse-engineering the Kryptonian technology to give him an edge ...

• At August 6, 2008, Tom wrote:

  Wait, that Superman/Batman story actually happened?

  Jesus, I thought he was kidding!

• At August 6, 2008, T. wrote:

  The Venom underscorigin doesnt' actually sound that bad. It makes a certain amount of sense, and is definitely no ...

• At August 6, 2008, T. wrote:

  Another awful underscorigin was Michael Green's Joker story in Batman confidential.

• At August 6, 2008, Jack Norris wrote:

  "Read on if you don’t mind being spoiled about the first issue of Venom: Dark Origin!"

  Why on Earth would I ...

• At August 6, 2008, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  I just plain don't get a mini-series about a characters origin, when we've already seen that characters origin.

  I can maybe ...

• At August 6, 2008, Tyson wrote:

  I don't recall Eddie Brock being a liar, particularly, in his original origin. He was just a bad reporter ...

• At August 6, 2008, Andy wrote:

  Yeah, but I can see the Eddie Brock thing making a certain amount of sense to me, too, though (keeping ...

• At August 6, 2008, ZZZ wrote:

  I like "Undersorigins." It's one of those things that I've never really consciously thought about, now I'm thinking "Oh yeah, ...

• At August 7, 2008, Ganky wrote:

  Bill Mantlo did that with the Hulk, when he was all savage and wordless and lost in the Crossroads Dimension, ...

• At August 7, 2008, T. wrote:

  Reed Richards being an Indiana Jones style adventurer is not really that bad an underscorigin as it was revealed early ...

• At June 9, 2009, tivo wrote:

  in every other medium on this planet its called fleshing out a character over time...every character in literature evolves this ...

Two recent illogical returns of comic book characters made me think about this one, which states that the the quality quotient of a character's return in the eyes of fans seems to be based upon the dividend of the lameness of the character's exit/death and the divisor of the lameness of the character's return.

So long as the lameness of the character's exit is greater than the lameness of the character's return, it seems like fans are pleased.

Read on for two recent (spoiler-filled) examples of this quotient at work!

First off, we have the return of Mockingbird in Secret Invasion #2. Now, the only thing we have been told so far about the Skrulls is that the ONE way you can tell if a Skrull agent is actually a Skrull is that they turn into a Skrull when they die. That's what happened to the Skrull impersonating Elektra, and that's what happened to the Skrull impersonating Spider-Man in Secret Invasion #2.

Okay, so Mockingbird died in Avengers West Coast #100. She did not turn into a Skrull. Therefore, according to the rules, she was not a Skrull, right?

And yet, she apparently was, as the real Mockingbird returned in Secret Invasion #2.

So it really does not follow the internal logic that writer Brian Michael Bendis set out for his own project. And that's pretty silly.

HOWEVER, the death of Mockingbird was terrible. It was one of those "It's a 100th issue - it has a foil cover, someone HAS to die!" type of deals, and her death was, when the team escapes from a confrontation in Hell, Mephisto just blasts her with fire as they escape - and she dies.

Totally hokey, and much worse than her silly return - so Mockingbird's return? It passes!

In this week's issue of Robin, Stephanie Brown, Spoiler, returns to life, as we learn that Leslie Thompkins faked her death. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the original story, and why they felt that they had to lie to Batman, of all people, is not explained, so yeah, not the most logical of returns.

HOWEVER, Spoiler had an even WORSE death than Mockingbird - first she is made out to be a moron for starting War Games, then she is tortured nearly to death by Black Mask, and finally, she is killed by Leslie Thompkins as a lesson to Batman to show him what happens when he brings young people into his war. It was just an awful death.

A lot worse than her illogical return - so Spoiler's return? It passes!!!

And what do you know, in both instances, fans seem to be quite pleased about the return of both characters, whether their returns made much sense or not.

33 Comments

• At May 22, 2008, Dalarsco wrote:

  To me, Spoiler's return was good thanks to Batman explaining that he always suspected she was alive and that's why ...

• At May 22, 2008, jazzbo wrote:

  Haven't we also seen Mockingbird's soul in Hell or some other similar places more than once? I'm glad to have ...

• At May 22, 2008, Michael wrote:

  This all assumes that the Mockingbird in Secret Invasion is NOT a Skrull, of course.

• At May 22, 2008, Alan Coil wrote:

  The problem with Skrullvasion is that now EVERY story ever told since Stan Lee stopped writing every month is subject ...

• At May 22, 2008, Jeff R. wrote:

  Alan: by that logic, the invention of Doombots made all subsequent Doctor Doom stories worthless...

• At May 22, 2008, T. wrote:

  I think Dixon brought Spoiler back because he didn't like the tacky way she died and what was done to ...

• At May 22, 2008, Colossus_2000 wrote:

  I don't care either way, Spoiler and Mockingbird are two of my favourite characters! I would happily accept her being ...

• At May 22, 2008, Random Stranger wrote:

  Most of the characters who came out of the Skrull ship in SI #1 couldn't be Skrulls according to continuity ...

• At May 22, 2008, John Seavey wrote:

  When the Skrulls lost their shapeshifting powers, though, they didn't revert to their natural forms; they were stuck in the ...

• At May 22, 2008, Alan Coil wrote:

  Jeff R.

  Agreed.

• At May 22, 2008, T. wrote:

  The problem with Skrullvasion is that now EVERY story ever told since Stan Lee stopped writing every month is subject ...

• At May 22, 2008, The Mutt wrote:

  I'm not even reading Secret Invasion (Sounds a bit naughty, dunnit?) but I figure that Mocky is back just to ...

• At May 22, 2008, Andrew Collins wrote:

  Just like I tell anyone who complains about 'imaginary stories' in comics...they're ALL imaginary stories! ;)

  As for the resurrections, I'm ...

• At May 22, 2008, buttler wrote:

  I just figured you were warding off an expected flood of "OMG Steph!!!!" comments (which is what "Spoiler warning" has ...

• At May 22, 2008, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  Every story subject to revision? No story is worth paying attention to because it can magically be wiped out retroactively ...

• At May 22, 2008, Loren wrote:

  And yes, possibly controversial, but ‘Emerald Twilight’ was a classic example of 90s excess, a mistake even for people who ...

• At May 22, 2008, Craig wrote:

  I like how, for months, Spoiler's been seen on the Gotham Underground insert-snappy-prefix-for-"nine"-here-tych, and the book has nothing to do ...

• At May 22, 2008, Thok wrote:

  Nobody's mentioned Ice, who had a really lame death, and who's resurrection in Birds of Prey very much came out ...

• At May 23, 2008, wwk5d wrote:

  Well, by Bendis' own rules, we won't know if this is the real Mockingbird until she gets killed. I do ...

• At May 23, 2008, S Shapiro wrote:

  Anyone who has read the Deadgirl miniseries by Milligan ought to know how death works in comics. That's why the ...

• At May 23, 2008, Adrian Seltzer wrote:

  Am I the only one who remembers Skrullverine? If I remember right, it took an autopsy to find out ...

• At May 23, 2008, Carl wrote:

  The Mockingbird "death" has an easy explanation. Mephisto was involved. It would not be beyond his ability to ...

• At May 23, 2008, Sijo wrote:

  I don not agree that a less-lame return makes a terrible death better. It's still bad writing, that someone will ...

• At May 23, 2008, MLViola wrote:

  I was going to point out the fact that, as my memory serves, Emma Frost was the White Queen in ...

• At May 23, 2008, Stephen wrote:

  "For that reason, I was irked when they resurrected Hal as the Spectre. He had a good death, so I ...

• At May 23, 2008, jazzbo wrote:

  Do we actually know at this point that it was Barry Allen at the end of DC Universe 0? I ...

• At May 23, 2008, Richard wrote:

  "Well, by Bendis’ own rules, we won’t know if this is the real Mockingbird until she gets killed. I do ...

• At May 23, 2008, Richard wrote:

  "Do we actually know at this point that it was Barry Allen at the end of DC Universe 0? I ...

• At May 23, 2008, wwk5d wrote:

  Sijo, Mockingbird allowed him to die because he hypnotized and raped her...

• At May 24, 2008, Patent Dragon wrote:

  If the "escaped" heroes in SI #1 are the 80s versions, then why is Ms Marvel wearing her original outfit? ...

• At May 24, 2008, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  Hi the nail on the head, Brian. That equation is the reason I'm not surprised to see so many people ...

• At April 13, 2009, JB wrote:

  Don't know if anyone mentioned this idea, but maybe the reason Skrull Mockingbird didn't change back when she was killed ...

• At July 5, 2009, God Emperor Joker wrote:

  Maybe because its so obvious, I'm surprised noone mentioned Death Of Superman. All these years, everyone tried to kill Supes ...

It refers to the practice in stories of addressing reader's questions about the story yourself IN the story. Like if the reader is thinking, "Why didn't they just do ____?," have a character say why they didn't do ____. Or if a reader is thinking, "Boy, that is implausible," have the character remark, "Man, if I didn't see that for myself, I doubt I'd believe it actually happened!" Or if a reader is thinking, "This is just like that one time on ____," have a character remark, "Wow, this is just like that one time on _____." Essentially, address the person's "arguments" before they make them.

Probably the most notable example of hanging a lampshade is when characters acknowledge that what is happening to them seems like something that would happen in a TV show/movie/comic, and that's where the story is actually happening.

It differs in my mind from a "Cousin Larry trick" because hanging a lampshade is an intentional admittance of reader concerns, while a Cousin Larry trick is an after-the-fact attempt to deflect legitimate concern.

28 Comments

• At February 7, 2008, Eric TF Bat wrote:

  I heartily recommend TV Tropes, a website that talks about all this stuff - not just on TV, but also ...

• At February 7, 2008, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Good call, Eric!

  That is a neat site.

• At February 7, 2008, Jack Fear wrote:

  In the invaluable Turkey City Lexicon, they call this the "You Can't Fire Me, I Quit."

• At February 7, 2008, T. wrote:

  Does "hang a lampshade" have the same meaning as the term "hang a lantern" that was mentioned in the comments ...

• At February 7, 2008, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Yeah, T. I thought I mentioned that "hang a lantern" was an alternate phrasing. Did I forget to do that?

• At February 7, 2008, Captain Qwert Jr wrote:

  I've heard that phrase used in politics. It's when a politician points out their own flaws to head off an ...

• At February 7, 2008, T. wrote:

  Oh sorry, looks like you did. I missed that somehow. Never mind.

• At February 7, 2008, Comics Should Be Good! » Voluminous Vertigo Week: Vinyl Underground #5 wrote:

  [...] The Vinyl Underground, in case you are unfamiliar with the book, is about four young adults (each with their ...

• At February 7, 2008, Brian Cronin wrote:

  I’ve heard that phrase used in politics. It’s when a politician points out their own flaws to head off an ...

• At February 7, 2008, Michael wrote:

  My favorite use of this is from an episode of Firefly:

  Wash: "Telepathy? That's like something out of science fiction."

  Zoe: "Honey, ...

• At February 7, 2008, stealthwise wrote:

  That's just called proleptic writing, and it's been around since, what, the times of the Ancient Greeks? Weird to ...

• At February 7, 2008, John Seavey wrote:

  I've heard it used in the negative sense as a "Message From Fred", when the writer is subconsciously alerting themselves ...

• At February 7, 2008, Mike Loughlin wrote:

  If a writer uses the characters to comment on an element of the story that they did not write, is ...

• At February 7, 2008, Vert wrote:

  I'm confused about the terminology.

  It sounds like "hanging a lantern" would be a device the author uses to ...

• At February 7, 2008, FastEddie wrote:

  The TV Trope lampshading article is in http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging

• At February 7, 2008, Vert wrote:

  Is there anything that a link to a website can't answer?

  Thank you, Jebus for the internet!

• At February 7, 2008, Da Fug wrote:

  FF #6 when Mister Fantastic visits the kid in the hospital and explains his costume stretches because it's made of ...

• At February 7, 2008, Eric N. wrote:

  I've been calling this the Pirandello Effect, ever since I read this bit by French director Jean-Pierre Melville in "Melville ...

• At February 8, 2008, Steven wrote:

  Hey, thanks for the link and the shout out!

  ... and it's "Steven"

• At February 8, 2008, kushiro wrote:

  So this is what they've been doing on every episode of Lost since the beginning of Season 3?

• At February 8, 2008, Jeff Holland wrote:

  Is there a sub-term for when characters address reader concerns after the fact, or is that just called a story ...

• At February 8, 2008, Senator David Poundcake wrote:

  Doesn't Eminem do this during the last rap battle in '8 Mile'?

  IIRC, he's hanging lampshades all over the muthafuckin' joint ...

• At February 8, 2008, Apodaca wrote:

  I think we've all tried to block out any memories of 8 Mile.

• At February 9, 2008, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Oops, Steven! What a silly mistake. Corrected!

• At February 9, 2008, sgt pepper wrote:

  Just saw Darjeeling Limited and it uses these often for comic effect. Dudes, let's go on a spiritual journey!

• At February 10, 2008, Weekend Links « Graphic Fiction wrote:

  [...] My friend Jim Doom over at Doomkopf always talks about how Brian Michael Bendis is especially good at having ...

• At February 21, 2008, Comics Should Be Good! » Locke and Key #1 Review wrote:

  [...] Speaking to the everyday life approach, the characters all realize that going to live in a house that has ...

• At July 30, 2008, Comics Should Be Good! » Fantastic Four: True Story #1 Review wrote:

  [...] readers of Jasper Fforde, so it is quite intriguing how in this first issue, Cornell does not just hang ...

To wit, anyone re-read James Robinson's WildC.A.T.s run recently? It is not bad, but nor is it anything amazing. And it certainly pales dramatically to his Starman work (heck, even to his Firearm work). Yet his short run on WildC.A.T.s is remembered so fondly that it even gets a special mention in his Wikipedia entry - "Robinson also wrote a brief but very well remembered run on Wildcats." It IS well remembered, but it is funny that they used that term, as I think that is a great way of looking at it, it is well REMEMBERED, but that is because it came out in a sea of utter crap, so Robinson's pretty good run on WildC.A.T.s stands out so much that when we think back to that time, his run stands out as quite good.

So yeah, for those comics from the 90s that were pretty good but are remembered as better because they came out during the 90s I am going to refer to as "90s Good."

56 Comments

• At October 14, 2007, Will wrote:

  Does this include the stuff that you thought was good back in the 1990s, because when you're thirteen years old ...

• At October 14, 2007, MarkAndrew wrote:

  (I think the highest percentage of bad comics came from this time period)

  Nah, I disagree. Even from reading the stuff ...

• At October 14, 2007, Dave wrote:

  I'd have to say Generation X is pretty much the greatest example of "90's Good" I can think of. ...

• At October 14, 2007, Ian Astheimer wrote:

  So, 90s Good comics are like the cartoons from the 80s?

• At October 14, 2007, The Mutt wrote:

  I just checked my dictionary for 90s Good. There was a picture of Cerebus drawn by Todd MacFarlane.

• At October 14, 2007, Patrick Joseph wrote:

  Hmmm... I have to disagree here. I guess if you were just reading Marvel stuff, it may have been a ...

• At October 14, 2007, Rebis wrote:

  The '40s "were worse, percentage-wise"? Not sure I can sign off on that. Comics were a fledgling art form then. ...

• At October 14, 2007, Matt D wrote:

  Kesel's run is good period.

  But it was better for being surrounded by what it was.

  I wonder how good Waid's first ...

• At October 14, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  I don't think Alan Moore's Wildcats deserves the tag '90's Good'.

  Perhaps the first issue of it, and maybe issue 25, ...

• At October 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Hmmm… I have to disagree here. I guess if you were just reading Marvel stuff, it may have been a ...

• At October 14, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  Brian, I could be wrong, but I don't think Patrick's list was about 'percentages'. I saw it as proof that ...

• At October 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  If Patrick's point was just that there were good comics in the 90s, then there was no disagreement, as that's ...

• At October 14, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  But it's only really at Marvel- and, you're right, Image- that the concept applies. I say this because there's a ...

• At October 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Oh yeah, Rohan, I get what you're saying - I just think the whole field can be considered one big ...

• At October 14, 2007, Dave wrote:

  In reference to Patrick's list, I'd actually put A History of Violence under "90's Good" as well. It's a ...

• At October 14, 2007, T. wrote:

  But it’s only really at Marvel- and, you’re right, Image- that the concept applies.

  I disagee, there was a LOT of ...

• At October 14, 2007, Apathy Boy wrote:

  I understand what you're getting at, Brian, but it always gets my hackles up when people denigrate the '90s. I ...

• At October 14, 2007, Apathy Boy wrote:

  Oh, and of course there was crap coming from DC. But they had dozens and dozens of BRILLIANT series coming ...

• At October 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  I understand what you’re getting at, Brian, but it always gets my hackles up when people denigrate the ’90s. I ...

• At October 14, 2007, MarkAndrew wrote:

  Oh, and of course there was crap coming from DC. But they had dozens and dozens of BRILLIANT series coming ...

• At October 14, 2007, Apathy Boy wrote:

  "I still think everything else said in the above entry holds true, though."

  Oh yeah, I'm not arguing that. I just ...

• At October 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Totally fair point, Apathy Boy.

• At October 14, 2007, Apathy Boy wrote:

  "And I’d certainly argue that both Fanta and D & Q’s output in the nineties was better’n DC’s both in ...

• At October 14, 2007, MarkAndrew wrote:

  Yeah, that's true. I'm STILL shocked that DC published SRB, and we're, what, a dozen years later? There ...

• At October 14, 2007, Adam Weissman wrote:

  90s Good:

  Fabien Nicieza's Nomad

• At October 14, 2007, Adam Weissman wrote:

  90's Good:

  Howard Mackie's Ghost Rider.

• At October 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  90s Good:

  Fabien Nicieza’s Nomad That is such a great example.

  That series does NOT hold up well. Time is kinder ...

• At October 15, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  Interestingly enough, Nomad and Ghost Rider were both Marvel titles. Just sayin'...

• At October 15, 2007, Fran wrote:

  Well, in 90´s we got from Marvel PAD´s Hulk and X-Factor, Alan Davis´ Excalibur and Clan Destine, Harras´ Avengers, Waid´s ...

• At October 15, 2007, EvilDeathBee wrote:

  The one reason I don't think the term will catch on is that it's too difficult to apply it to ...

• At October 15, 2007, red-Ricky wrote:

  Wow Brian, I think you are being glib.

  It sounds like you are basically judging a whole decade based on your ...

• At October 15, 2007, mrjayberry wrote:

  Peter Davids run on X-Factor is a great example for me. Last time I read those back issues from it ...

• At October 15, 2007, Patrick Joseph wrote:

  I certainly wasn't going for a per centage tally of what was good in the 90's compared to other decades. ...

• At October 15, 2007, J. Paul wrote:

  Joe Kelly's Deadpool, first year.

• At October 15, 2007, DanCJ wrote:

  I don’t think Alan Moore’s Wildcats deserves the tag ’90’s Good’.

  Perhaps the first issue of it, and maybe issue 25, ...

• At October 15, 2007, Matt D wrote:

  Alright,

  Operation: Galactic Storm was 90s good.

• At October 15, 2007, chris wrote:

  Ha ha, I love Operation Galactic Storm! Another Marvel book that I'd argue surpasses "90's good" into "just plain ...

• At October 15, 2007, Thenodrin wrote:

  I thought Operation Galactic Storm was weak. But, YMMV.

  I think that the point of the article holds up even ...

• At October 15, 2007, John Cage wrote:

  It's hard for me to separate "90s Good" from books I enjoy because I got into comics during the 90s. ...

• At October 15, 2007, avengers63 wrote:

  Taken out of context, anything can be made to look however one wishes. Only when seen as a whole ...

• At October 15, 2007, John Cage wrote:

  Oops. Almost forgot -- I saw someone mention Joe Kelly's Deadpool, which is as far away from "90s Good" as ...

• At October 15, 2007, Mike McGee wrote:

  I have to throw in with everyone who's said that what you're really talking about here is something much closer ...

• At October 15, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  "But, it is also the same decade that gave us Knightfall, Acts of Vengeance, and Team Youngblood."

  Knightfall was good.

• At October 15, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  Nah - Alan Moore’s Wildcats was good. Maybe not “Alan Moore good” but still good

  It was a plot driven story ...

• At October 15, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  Though speaking of Moore and Spawn, I'd say those issues of Spawn where he got Moore, Gaiman, Sim, Miller and ...

• At October 15, 2007, Mark wrote:

  Despite many great works, I would vote for the 90s as being the low point of comics but, if you ...

• At October 16, 2007, TF_loki wrote:

  I recently got hold of Waid's Cap run expecting something amazing and it just did nothing for me. I guess ...

• At October 16, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  It probably didn't hurt that it came after Gru's run, which certainly wasn't bad, but lost its way towards the ...

• At October 16, 2007, Thenodrin wrote:

  I would argue that Knightfall is one of the low points of the Batman canon. It is also one of ...

• At October 16, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  Well, Knightfall was one of three seperate chapters in the AzBats saga, as I'm sure you're aware, and I'd argue ...

• At October 17, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  Read the Denny O'Neil novelisation of Knightfall.

  Much better than the comic.

• At October 17, 2007, Apodaca wrote:

  I saw someone mention Joe Kelly’s Deadpool, which is as far away from “90s Good” as you can get... It’s ...

• At November 7, 2007, Niki wrote:

  does anyone remember a comic series about a conan-esque character named 'Gru' he had a dog, and swords, ...

• At November 7, 2007, Niki wrote:

  nicolestone116@yahoo.com

• At December 7, 2007, Brett wrote:

  Len Kaminski and Ron Wagner on the first 7 issues of 'Morbius the Living Vampire' (1992-93). Wagner hung around for ...

• At February 5, 2008, Steve wrote:

  It's been awhile since my love affair with marvel, but recently when passing by a comic book store I decided ...

Pygmalion characters are those characters where, while not a proxy for their author/creator, the writer still goes out of his/her way to make their creation "the best at what they do." I think we can all agree that it is, generally speaking, pretty tacky when a brand new character created by a book's writer is suddenly beating up established characters, with the presumed intent of making the creation of the writer look better. They are basically just pet characters.

Remember how annoying it was when Batman was turning to Tarantula for help during War Crimes? Stuff like that - it's silly and poor writing.

Tarantula, though, was not a "Mary Sue" of writer/creator Devin Grayson. But she WAS a bad character who fits into a specific reoccurring category of characters written by their creators who suddenly are "the best" and have other characters talk about how good they are (Another good example is Constantine Drakkon in Green Arrow).

So Kid Kyoto suggested Pygmalion, based on the famous Greek myth of the sculptor who fell in love with his own creation. That nails the concept beautifully, doesn't it?

So pygmalion characters, it is!!

50 Comments

• At September 5, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  I hate those sorts of characters - when done well, it can really work, but 99%... it's just bad.

  That said, ...

• At September 5, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  I don't know about Batman. A Pygmalion is essentially a pet character, and there's no one writer who's trying to ...

• At September 6, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  Well, he's the companies pet, and it was cute for a bit, but now it's boring.

• At September 6, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  Batman's not really a pygmalion character though, is he, Funky? From what I understand of the term, one of the ...

• At September 6, 2007, Rohan Williams wrote:

  Sorry, I must have posted before I saw the second and third posts. Damn!

• At September 6, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  Fair enough, it's not his creators doing it... but what's the term for a character who suddenly breaks out into ...

• At September 6, 2007, T. wrote:

  The funny thing is, as annoying a pygmalion as Drakkon is, he is one of my favorite characters simply because ...

• At September 6, 2007, Graham Vingoe wrote:

  It may just be me, but I think the biggest culprit in terms of Pygmalion characters is Chris Claremont who ...

• At September 6, 2007, James wrote:

  So, what... a new character can't beat/be better than an old character? Why the hell not? Why is that automatically ...

• At September 6, 2007, Michael wrote:

  Brian, I keep telling you, a Mary Sue doesn't have to be a self-insertion, just annoyingly better at everything than ...

• At September 6, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  So, what… a new character can’t beat/be better than an old character? Why the hell not? Why is that automatically ...

• At September 6, 2007, Jon wrote:

  If Claremont is guilty of this - and I agree that he is - it's not with Kitty and Storm ...

• At September 6, 2007, James wrote:

  "Nobody said “automatically”."

  Okay, just "generally" and "99% of the time".

• At September 6, 2007, DanCJ wrote:

  I like Constantine Drakon

• At September 6, 2007, Steve Flanagan wrote:

  Just to be pedantic: Pygmalion was the sculptor; the character would be a "Galatea".

• At September 6, 2007, Anonymous wrote:

  how about Gammora...she shows up one day and is automatically "the deadliest woman in the galaxy"! I hate that kinda ...

• At September 6, 2007, avengers63 wrote:

  My gripes on this sort of thing:

  1) The new characters are frequently over-hyped by the company as the next big ...

• At September 6, 2007, E.D. wrote:

  Pygmalion kind of works, but doesn't it imply that the writer is "improving" an existing character? I don't think ...

• At September 6, 2007, suedenim wrote:

  Michael, true, Mary Sue doesn't have to be self-insertion, but while "annoyingly better at everything than everyone" is (probably) necessary ...

• At September 6, 2007, Michael wrote:

  "Michael, true, Mary Sue doesn’t have to be self-insertion, but while “annoyingly better at everything than everyone” is (probably) necessary ...

• At September 6, 2007, T. wrote:

  Screw Gambit, Cable, Carnage, Deadpool, etc. I’m fully capable of making my own deciding for myself. If you want me ...

• At September 6, 2007, avengers63 wrote:

  If Clairmont didn't intend Gambit to be so big, I can take him off the list. I still include ...

• At September 6, 2007, John Trumbull wrote:

  Personally, I always found Tim Drake to be a bit of a Mary Sue, at least in his initial incarnation. ...

• At September 6, 2007, Eric wrote:

  So what about characters not created by the current writer? Batman is an example, as well as the likes ...

• At September 6, 2007, David wrote:

  "(or showing it, e.g., in a way that requires the character’s opponents to act like idiots who don’t remember their ...

• At September 6, 2007, avengers63 wrote:

  I don't know that Cage is "written as the baddest there is". He's a strong guy with tough skin. ...

• At September 6, 2007, suedenim wrote:

  It feels kinda weird to say it about a fictional character, but I think Luke Cage has "paid his dues," ...

• At September 6, 2007, Thenodrin wrote:

  I would submit that the difference between a Mary Sue and a Pygmalian character is where it falls on the ...

• At September 6, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Just to be pedantic: Pygmalion was the sculptor; the character would be a “Galatea”. I actually did consider that, but ...

• At September 6, 2007, Ian wrote:

  Besides Galatea is Power Girl right?

  Personally, and maybe its because of my age, but I don't see the problem with ...

• At September 6, 2007, Apodaca wrote:

  Was Tao from WildC.A.T.s not awesome?

  Nope.

• At September 6, 2007, Tom Russell wrote:

  "Was Tao from WildC.A.T.s not awesome?

  Nope. "

  If they were not "not awesome", would that then make them "awesome"? ;-)

• At September 6, 2007, Luis Dantas wrote:

  So, is Wolverine the ultimate Mary Sue?

• At September 6, 2007, Bully wrote:

  I would argue a Mary Sue has to be a Mary Sue from day one, so I'd so no to ...

• At September 6, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  how about Gammora…she shows up one day and is automatically “the deadliest woman in the galaxy”! I hate that kinda ...

• At September 6, 2007, ATOM HOTEP wrote:

  The reason that Batman is an iconic character gives him a free pass on so much. Batman and Superman are ...

• At September 6, 2007, Lorendiac wrote:

  From my perspective, the distinction between what you mean by a "Mary Sue" character and what you call a "Pygmalion" ...

• At September 6, 2007, Luis Dantas wrote:

  I'm serious; the Mary Sue definition actually seems to have been built to fit Wolverine. Is there _any_ way ...

• At September 7, 2007, T. wrote:

  I’m serious; the Mary Sue definition actually seems to have been built to fit Wolverine. Is there _any_ way in ...

• At September 7, 2007, James Wilkinson wrote:

  Surely Drakon's different, though? He's a baddie. Setting up a foe to appear virtually unbeatable so that the good guy ...

• At September 7, 2007, Thenodrin wrote:

  Wolverine isn't a Mary Sue character for multiple reasons:

  1. His "creator" didn't really establish him. The Wolverine we have ...

• At September 7, 2007, suedenim wrote:

  Marrissa Amber Flores Picard, now there’s a Mary Sue.

  Ah, Bully, what a well-read little stuffed bull you are!

  http://www.svamcentral.org/svam/ms-mar.html

  Marrissa is also ...

• At September 7, 2007, avengers63 wrote:

  "2) They come out of the woodwork and are as good as, and often better, than long-established characters. If these ...

• At September 7, 2007, chris wrote:

  The Avengers have been filled with this since style of writing since the 60's, starting with Roy Thomas: namely, the ...

• At September 7, 2007, Scavenger wrote:

  So, you say it's essentially a pet character...so why do we need a term when we have "Pet Character"

  There are ...

• At September 7, 2007, avengers63 wrote:

  CHRIS: Nice pickup on my screen name. Well done.

  Sure it's been done in The Avengers. It's been ...

• At September 7, 2007, avengers63 wrote:

  Look guys, this is starting to degenerate into a flame. Let's just stop now.

  Let's leave it at this: We ...

• At September 7, 2007, Luis Dantas wrote:

  How easy is it to define who created a character anyway? Wolverine wasn't exactly strongly defined before Claremont. ...

• At September 9, 2007, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  That’s the entire gripe: They were created, not earned.

  Take Cable & Deadpool for example. When they were introduced, they were ...

• At May 2, 2009, eaten by a grue wrote:

  I fail to see how this definition does not fit the definition of a Mary Sue.

False Epiphany Characters are characters that writers have become obsessed with writing the ultimate end-all/ be-all story for. Writers are so attracted with writing breakthrough stories for these characters that they regularly negate the previous writer's breakthrough for the same character and simply hit the reset button. After seeing how Miller was able to make a legend out of himself by writing the breakthrough maturation of a B-level character like Daredevil or how Morrison made his mark with Animal Man and Doom Patrol, a lot of writers want to do breakthrough stories of their own with well-known, B-level characters in hopes of making legends of themselves also. It's harder to do a breakthrough with Batman and Spider-Man because they have had so many classic runs, but lower-tier characters give a better chance at this. For some reason, certain characters attract this phenomenon more than others:

Iceman - many writers over the years, writers keep fixating on showing that Bobby is an insecure slacker who has not been using his powers for their full potential for the longest time...until now. He will now be more mature AND realize the full extent of his powers. Lobdell, Nicieza, Austen and whoever was writing him during Zero Tolerance and more that I probably missed have all had Bobby become more mature and realize his powers' full extent...until the next writer comes along and starts it all over again.

Nightwing - I have lost count of the amount of times a storyline has promised to take Nightwing "out of the shadow of the bat." Seriously, just retire that phrase already. Wolfman defined the template of post-80s Dick Grayson for all time: Can never win fights unless against henchmen, wallows in his inadequacies and daddy issues, cries a lot especially when mind control villains make him hallucinate about his daddy Batman hating him. Then we have Judas Contract, where he supposedly becomes his own man. He does this by getting tossed around and running away from Deathstroke and putting on a new costume and making grand speeches about getting out of the shadow of the bat. Right after he gets out of the shadow of the bat, he's right back to losing fights and crying over how Batman didn't love him during the Trigon storyline. Since then, we've seen him step out of Batman's shadow and "come into his own" over and over again, and a recent Devin Grayson/Phil Hester issue even had the term "out of the shadow of the bat" appear on the cover...face it, HE'S NEVER GOING TO BREAK THAT ROLE! Astonishing are the New Teen Titans apologists that keep citing that book as the one that made Nightwing into a confident independent solo hero all his own. Have they read the past 27 years of Dick Grayson appearances?

Roy Harper - Meltzer once again has shown how Roy has put the shadows of his past behind him and has graduated to the big leagues and has confidence to show for it. After Devin's miniseries did the same before that. As well as his stint as Titans leader under Wolfman's final issues did before that. Yet we see Karate Kid mocking him as a loser again in Countdown. Nothing will change.

Anyone have any others?

28 Comments

• At July 17, 2007, Patent Dragon wrote:

  The Silver Surfer's been through some of this kind of thing, I believe. The "trapped on Earth" situation gets negated, ...

• At July 17, 2007, Matt Bird wrote:

  The Penguin!

  How many times have we read-- "This is the story that finally makes the Penguin dangerous!" But it ...

• At July 17, 2007, Michael wrote:

  Lobdell *was* the one writing Iceman during Zero Tolerance.

• At July 17, 2007, Colossus 2000 wrote:

  What about Captain America, with every new writer wanting to 'explore how a man out of time relates to the ...

• At July 17, 2007, Lewis wrote:

  I think Nightwing's been out of the shadow of the bat for awhile, the problem being that writers drag him ...

• At July 17, 2007, T. wrote:

  I do think Cap is a false epiphany character, but the epiphany that I think gets recycled with him even ...

• At July 17, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  Human Torch is another one in the same vein as Iceman. Not powerise, cause the Torch has only ever gotten ...

• At July 17, 2007, Reid wrote:

  Green Arrow gets that a lot, from Batman wannabe to social activist to vigilante archer to wisened father to dead ...

• At July 17, 2007, Flush it all away wrote:

  I dunno, who's Bendis writing this week?

• At July 18, 2007, Tim Callahan wrote:

  Other examples might include...

  Dr. Fate (now he's a guy and a girl. Now he's a dude TO THE EXTREME. ...

• At July 18, 2007, -alistairw wrote:

  I was just about to mention Johnny Storm as well, Sean. I think, to my mind, only the runs of ...

• At July 18, 2007, J. Paul wrote:

  Cannonball - In issues of X-Force he was built up as the second coming of Cyclops and then he joined ...

• At July 18, 2007, T. wrote:

  Other examples might include…

  Dr. Fate (now he’s a guy and a girl. Now he’s a dude TO THE EXTREME. Etc.)

  Captain ...

• At July 18, 2007, T. wrote:

  Also, it seems women and minorities don't seem to have this problem. Wasp and Invisible Woman matured gradually and ...

• At July 18, 2007, Chris Heide wrote:

  I think you could really break your original definition into two concepts:

  1. The False Epiphany Character - character who constantly ...

• At July 18, 2007, Ian wrote:

  Both Iceman and Human Torch are the jokers of the group. The immature, impetuous, 'fun' characters. What story is ...

• At July 18, 2007, Jaleel wrote:

  You can't have a Moon Knight run without Spector giving up his alter ego. Sometimes he'll even give up his ...

• At July 18, 2007, Amy M. wrote:

  This does seem to be something that infects young male characters in particular. I think it is because the ...

• At July 18, 2007, Anthony Strand wrote:

  It's only happened twice, I suppose, but I'm surprised no one mentioned the Flash. Mark Waid had Wally West realize ...

• At July 18, 2007, Mullon wrote:

  These comic book terms seem to be awfully negative. Someone needs to think of a positive term.

• At July 18, 2007, Patent Dragon wrote:

  Must agree with Tim - the Legion pretty much defines the term these days. Can we expect a "Crisis In ...

• At July 18, 2007, ATOM HOTEP wrote:

  Actually I'd say that Hal Jordan and Black Adam are both "false epiphany" characters - Johns has gone out of ...

• At July 18, 2007, Omar Karindu wrote:

  These comic book terms seem to be awfully negative. Someone needs to think of a positive term.

  I can't soeak for ...

• At July 18, 2007, Omar Karindu wrote:

  I should add to my prior comment that I can understand the perception that my negative examples outweighed my positive ...

• At July 19, 2007, Thenodrin wrote:

  I agree with Chris Heide in that there are two issues here:

  1. re-used "epiphany" where the character experiences a personality ...

• At July 19, 2007, Cove West wrote:

  Wow, Theno. I had a big-ass post all ready for the typing, but now I don't need to. ...

• At July 20, 2007, Luis Dantas wrote:

  T.: Iceman's false epiphanies actually go back all the way to the 1970s, when he was a member of the ...

• At July 20, 2007, Luis Dantas wrote:

  Black Adam was quite a charicature to start with (frankly, so were pretty much all of Fawcett's characters). He ...

Grace Notes are plot points that exist as homages, references, and reenactments of past stories of a character or title that have become iconic for that character or title. When Jean Grey goes Phoenix again, that's a Grace Note; when Bullseye or the Green Goblin threaten the hero's girlfriend, that's a Grace Note; when Batman winds up facing Ra's Al Ghul in a swordfight in the desert, that's a Grace Note. When Green Lantern teams with Green Arrow for an issue or two, that's a Grace Note.

The difference between a Grace Note and a mere homage is that a Grace Note is a plot point; and homage can be a deliberate coincidence of image or a reenactment sequence with no major bearing on the plot.

Used well, it can play as a variation on a governing theme or a classic, as when Brian Bendis had the Kingpin return to take over the New York mobs, only to twist it from Miller's version of that story idea by having Daredevil simply get pissed off and beat the fat man to pulp. Another might be the neat reversal of the classic Green Lantern/Flash team-up formula in Mark Waid's "The Return of Barry Allen" plotline. At a certain level, the entire post-Crisis rivalry between Superman and Batman was a Grace Note in a different key, referring ironically or inversely to their decades-long teaming as the World's Finest Duo before.

More popularly, Kurt Busiek in certain sense builds some of the background material of Astro City from Grace Notes, albeit Grace Notes from superhero source material rather than from his own characters' (pastiched) histories. Planetary/Batman might well be a masterclass in the use of Grace Notes.

Used badly, Grcae Notes produce what Brian has already called Karaoke Comics, or when really abused, pure kitsch.

Jeph Loeb's work is, to my mind, a prime example of the abuse of Grace Notes. Hush, Supergirl, and Superman/Batman were structured around Grace Notes. In Hush, one issue might give the fans the comforting spectacle of Superman facing Batman; the next would tap Neal Adams's iconography by giving Batman his de rigeur swordfight and cryptic verbal joust with Ra's al Ghul; yet another would play out the ingrained spectacle of Batman "almost killing" the Joker in rage about the death of some cast member or other. All of these are remixes, or, more accurately, representations of stories past, stories of great impact. Put together, they create the illusion by way of allusion that Hush is also of great impact.

Because it was once important that Superman and Batman threw down, or that the Joker's murder of a "name" character nearly provoked Batman to kill, because an entire era of Superman stories can be signified by Luthor's green armor, and because both the casual and the dedicated fans -- and, one has to say, a subset of analytically-minded superhero fans -- immediately detect the "aura" of importance surrounding these moments, Loeb's stories tend to be treated as importnat for including the set of referents that carry with them that significance.

It's a bit beyond nostalgia, of course, because nostalgia in its truer form wouldn't abide a story that hits Miller's DKR and Bill Finger's 1950s mystery stories one after the other, all in the key of the Image 90s courtesy of Jim Lee's art. What happens instead is that "importance" becomes a selling point while the very specific reasons for the original, actual importance of the stories being referred to are subsumed by the sheer quantity of Grace Notes.

16 Comments

• At July 17, 2007, Yankee Jones wrote:

  I noticed this occurence as well but never put a name to it. Top work!

  These "grace notes" are probably my ...

• At July 17, 2007, Michael wrote:

  That entire JLA/JSA crossover was nothing but Grace Notes. And boy, did it suck.

• At July 18, 2007, Pól Rua wrote:

  Best use ever was Ra's' appearance in Kyle Baker's 'Plastic Man'.

  "This is a situation that can only be resolved with... ...

• At July 18, 2007, John Seavey wrote:

  I'll agree with Mr. Jones, above, and call the trend towards Grace Notes (and homages) one I'm uncomfortable with, both ...

• At July 18, 2007, Patient Boy wrote:

  Would Bryan Singer liberally borrowing from the Donner Superman movie count?

• At July 18, 2007, Mullon wrote:

  So where does the "Grace Note" term itself come from?

  Did someone named Grace do it a lot?

• At July 18, 2007, Ben Herman wrote:

  And here I thought this sort of thing was typically referred to as Fan Wank. But I guess Grace ...

• At July 18, 2007, stealthwise wrote:

  Great points about Hush. They help pinpoint why I hated that story so much. Well, that and the ...

• At July 18, 2007, Omar Karindu wrote:

  Heh. I borrowed the term from musical notation, where Grace Notes are a form of ornament. In music ...

• At July 18, 2007, John Seavey wrote:

  No, Fan Wank is not the phenomenon described here, the use of repeated plot elements in order to give the ...

• At July 18, 2007, Ben Herman wrote:

  Okay, so, on the final page of Astonishing X-Men #15, with Kitty Pryde in the sewers striking the exact same ...

• At July 19, 2007, John Seavey wrote:

  That, I think would be a Grace Note. She's in that pose so that we know that she, like Wolverine ...

• At July 19, 2007, Thenodrin wrote:

  I love this article.

  I'd say that the scene where Luthor flees from the Superman / Batman v. Darkseid battle, only ...

• At July 19, 2007, Cove West wrote:

  Here's another way to seeing it:

  Fanwanks are the kind of thing you get No-prizes for. Grace Notes are the ...

• At July 19, 2007, John Seavey wrote:

  Re: Cap's Old Shield--

  It'd depend on how it was used. If you were writing the Avengers, and you had it ...

• At July 19, 2007, Omar Karindu wrote:

  Or, alternately, it was a bit of Fan Wank when Roger Stern made sure that Captain America had the triangular ...

Remember how annoying it was when Batman was turning to Tarantula for help during War Crimes? Stuff like that - it's silly and poor writing.

But I don't think it is necessarily a "Mary Sue." I don't think Tarantula was a "Mary Sue" of Devin Grayson.

But she WAS a bad character who fits into a specific reoccurring category of characters written by their creators who suddenly are "the best" and have other characters talk about how good they are (Another good example is Constantine Drakkon in Green Arrow).

So my request is this - help me think of a good term for these characters so I can do a Comic Book Dictionary installment on the new term!

74 Comments

• At April 26, 2007, Dan K wrote:

  How about Poochies. Like on Itchy and Scratchy.

• At April 26, 2007, SonTenks wrote:

  Jonathans. After the Buffy character who cast a spell to make just the situation you're describing happen in Superstar - ...

• At April 26, 2007, Niels van Eekelen wrote:

  I vote for Jonathans, too. Good idea. Funny, relatively easy to explain, and there should be more references to Jonathan ...

• At April 26, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  I'm afraid I can't agree, guys. "Poochie" is much more representative of corporate pandering than it is playing favorites with ...

• At April 26, 2007, Jonathan Hamilton wrote:

  How about "cuckoos"? The cuckoo bird lays its eggs in another bird's nest with the expectation that the victim will ...

• At April 26, 2007, Michael wrote:

  "Mary Sue." A character does not have to be a self-insertion to be a Mary Sue. The term's own history ...

• At April 26, 2007, J To The AAP wrote:

  Cuckoo. I was going to try and come up with one myself 'till I read the sugegstion for cuckoo.

• At April 26, 2007, Dan K wrote:

  If its just a matter of an author favouring a character which they have created the I think Mary Sue ...

• At April 26, 2007, Tom Russell wrote:

  Super-Cool Ultra Badass, spoken with tongue firmly in cheek?

• At April 26, 2007, Matthew wrote:

  Class Two Mary Sue?

• At April 26, 2007, The Mutt wrote:

  We should call them Trevanians.

• At April 26, 2007, Bangkokian wrote:

  I suggest "Ronin" nameless, faceless character whose creator fit him/her in wherever he could.

• At April 26, 2007, DanCJ wrote:

  What's wrong with Constantine Dracon?

• At April 26, 2007, Tyler wrote:

  I third Cuckoo. The explanation is perfect.

• At April 26, 2007, David C wrote:

  It's not especially witty, but I think "pet character" is a good descriptive term. "Mary Sue" is one ...

• At April 26, 2007, David wrote:

  I like "cukoos."

  It might be worth looking to professional wrestling: they have terms like "Jabronie / jobber" to ...

• At April 26, 2007, Mr.Chris wrote:

  I think the new Batgirl would be an example of a "Poochie."

• At April 26, 2007, Marionette wrote:

  There's a new Batgirl? I'm not sure we used up the last one yet.

  The extension of the writer is ...

• At April 26, 2007, Corey wrote:

  Gambit

• At April 26, 2007, Evan Waters wrote:

  After #15, I vote for GMPC.

• At April 26, 2007, Conor E wrote:

  I'm partial to "Poochie" myself, but I think that's from my days as a wrestling fan and being endlessly amused ...

• At April 26, 2007, Steve Flanagan wrote:

  I had been wondering what a "Mary Sue" was. What's the origin?

  My preference would be: don't invent a new ...

• At April 26, 2007, Sarah wrote:

  That's still a Mary Sue, in my opinion.

  But Poochie is fine. :)

• At April 26, 2007, sean wrote:

  Doomsday.

• At April 26, 2007, Gil Jaysmith wrote:

  "Trevanians". I like that.

  ~ Gil

• At April 26, 2007, Ian Astheimer wrote:

  We should call them Trevanians.

  After the author?

• At April 26, 2007, David C wrote:

  Oh, something I wrote earlier:

  But the touchstone of “Pet Character” in comics is probably that the writer is much more ...

• At April 26, 2007, GarBut wrote:

  Eclipso

• At April 26, 2007, Mark wrote:

  Susan Maries?

  I'd save the term Poochy for the Bart Allen Flash.

• At April 26, 2007, Michael wrote:

  "I had been wondering what a “Mary Sue” was. What’s the origin?"

  A piece of Star Trek fan fiction where a ...

• At April 26, 2007, The Mutt wrote:

  I was thinking how Trevanian's protaganist in Shibumi is the most extreme example I've seen of an author making his ...

• At April 26, 2007, Chris wrote:

  I vote for Poochie too. Remember this quote from the episode when Homer was describing Poochie:

  "Poochie should be in ...

• At April 26, 2007, David Wynne wrote:

  My vote is for "Pet Character", because it's nice and clear. Even if someone isn't familiar with the term, it ...

• At April 26, 2007, MarkAndrew wrote:

  I like "pet character."

  "Cuckoos" isn't bad, but I don't like any negative terms that could be closely associated with my ...

• At April 26, 2007, garbonzo wrote:

  Hmmm. Psylocke (sp?) comes to mind on this one. Claremont has built her up to mythical proportions, while ...

• At April 26, 2007, Dan K wrote:

  "Hmmm. Psylocke (sp?) comes to mind on this one. Claremont has built her up to mythical proportions, while most readers ...

• At April 26, 2007, Tyler wrote:

  As someone else mentioned, it seems that "Poochie" refers more to forced exposure of a character due to corporate interests, ...

• At April 26, 2007, Dan K wrote:

  I think we actually need several terms. How about this?

  Poochie: A character who is specifically created to be "the next ...

• At April 26, 2007, Michael wrote:

  So, that would make Speedball a Jonathan?

• At April 26, 2007, Dan K wrote:

  "So, that would make Speedball a Jonathan?"

  Absolutely

• At April 26, 2007, David C wrote:

  I think "Poochie" characters are often "attempt to cash in on a trend just as it's petering out" characters, too. ...

• At April 26, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  The problem with "Poochie" is that it's already fast becoming as annoying and misused an expression as "Mary Sue", in ...

• At April 26, 2007, Michael wrote:

  "The problem with “Poochie” is that it’s already fast becoming as annoying and misused an expression as “Mary Sue”, in ...

• At April 26, 2007, T. wrote:

  I think one of the best examples is Connor Hawke, he came around was instantly one of the best, upstaging ...

• At April 26, 2007, J.C. wrote:

  A Wolvie. With the added characteristic of being shoehorned into every single story in a shared universe, regardless of ...

• At April 26, 2007, Peanut Gallery wrote:

  Poochie is best for an "astroturfed" character from a corporation. Cuckoo sounds good the connection is kinda tenuous, imho. ...

• At April 27, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  HEAT did this a lot.

  That's interesting. I could almost see the argument made that Kyle was a self-insert of Marz's, ...

• At April 27, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  A Wolvie. With the added characteristic of being shoehorned into every single story in a shared universe, regardless of style, ...

• At April 27, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Sadly, "pet character" really sounds like the "best" choice so far.

  And it is so boooooooooring.

• At April 27, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  How about "trophy wife"? (to be used regardless of if the character's male or female)

• At April 27, 2007, Peanut Gallery wrote:

  LOL, I love "trophy wife"! That's excellent!

  Re: Wally West as a Mary Sue: a good writer can write a ...

• At April 27, 2007, DanCJ wrote:

  I thought when Morrison did it they were called Fiction Suits

• At April 27, 2007, veghead wrote:

  Pet character, boring as it may be, is easily the best because it requires no explanation. Go for clarity ...

• At April 27, 2007, Eriata wrote:

  The definition of Mary-Sue I use is that the character warps the story around them; the plot takes second place ...

• At April 27, 2007, T. wrote:

  This is what I’m talking about. Wolverine isn’t forced in people’s faces in a desperate attempt to make him popular. ...

• At April 27, 2007, Mike Loughlin wrote:

  Fonzies.

  The Fonz was a supporting character on Happy Days who:

  -overtook the main characters.

  - the writers favored.

  - was defined as being ...

• At April 27, 2007, Jonathan Hamilton wrote:

  Well, I certainly don't care for "Jonathans." :(

• At April 27, 2007, Dan K wrote:

  "Fonzies.

  The Fonz was a supporting character on Happy Days who:

  -overtook the main characters.

  - the writers favored.

  - was defined as being ...

• At April 27, 2007, David C wrote:

  I made a little Venn diagram of how my personal definitions of Pet Character, Mary Sue, and Self-Insertion overlap (hope ...

• At April 27, 2007, T. wrote:

  Fonzie doesn't work because he wasn't created with the intention of being as cool and popular as he eventually became. ...

• At April 27, 2007, David C wrote:

  "Has this ever worked?"

  Might be hard to tell, because if it did work, people would tend to forget that the ...

• At April 27, 2007, Sean Whitmore wrote:

  Tim Drake might be another example of a character who was highly exposed and succeeded in becoming popular. I remember ...

• At April 27, 2007, T. wrote:

  Sean,

  Great point. They were trying to push Tim Drake as great from the get-go, and it worked.

• At April 27, 2007, Loren wrote:

  "Annie Oakley." Or "Annie." Or maybe an "Annie-Hero."

  Why? "Anything you can do I can do better; I ...

• At April 27, 2007, J.C. wrote:

  I'm not denying that Wolverine is popular and gets a lot of writing because he's a fan fave. But ...

• At April 27, 2007, Dan K wrote:

  "Wolvie went from being a guy with metal claws who could heal to being effectively immortal, super strong, and having ...

• At April 27, 2007, T. wrote:

  Yeah, and if you look at the early Wolverine appearances beyond the first Hulk appearance, he really didn't do all ...

• At April 27, 2007, Matt Bird wrote:

  I was also reluctantly going for "pet character" until "Annie Oakley" came along. That's perfect!

  (And there's no ...

• At April 27, 2007, Anonymous wrote:

  Bendis

• At April 28, 2007, Mantistotem wrote:

  How about "Earth Two Mary Sue"?

• At June 18, 2007, Rebis wrote:

  I actually think "cuckoo" works best, although "Annie Oakley" has its charms. (But you have to keep the "Oakley," lest ...

• At September 7, 2007, Gloria wrote:

  I wouldn't take "Annie Oakley". She was good at shooting, yes, but remember how she wailed "you can't get a ...

• At October 7, 2007, Annie Oakley wrote:

  Hello, This is a pretty cool blog on Comic Book Dictionary Help!! Thanks a lot and have fun!

• At February 4, 2009, tori wrote:

  i loved reading all the i deas here

The term was first coined by Gail Simone a number of years ago. The reference is to an issue of Green Lantern, where Kyle Rayner's girlfriend is murdered and then stuffed inside a refrigerator by a bad guy who wanted to send Kyle a message. Simone proceeded to put together a list of a number of female characters that had been killed, maimed or depowered. Soon, people made suggestions for additions, et. al.

Simone put the list on its own website (it went through a few versions - here is the current "official" one).

Simone's point in making her list, as she says herself, has always been a simple one - "if you demolish most of the characters girls like, then girls won't read comics. That's it!" Which is completely fair enough. When I use the term, however, I am not being as broad as Gail Simone apparently originally intended the term to be used (which was simply to show how a disproportionate amount of female characters have been either killed, maimed or depowered).

Instead, I look to the plot device that the term is named after (Major Force killing Kyle Rayner's girlfriend and shoving her into a refrigerator to send a message to Rayner), and note that rather than being typical poor writing (which most plot devices are), "Women in Refrigerators" is a very specific form of poor writing that continues to pop up over and over in comic books to this day.

How I decide that the "Women in Refrigerators" plot device has occurred is determined by the use of a bipartite test, half objective and half subjective.

1. (Objective) A female character is killed/maimed/tortured/raped etc. for the main purpose of eliciting a desired reaction from a male character.

2. (Subjective) I do not believe that the same death/maiming/torture/rape would have occurred had the female character been a male.

The first part is, I believe, bad writing, in that it is extremely hokey to kill off a character (especially an established character) for the express purpose of just making another character react. I think you should have a purpose for a character's death other than, "It would really make Character X mad!" (especially an established character). It seems rather cheap. However, it is only when the second part is met that I believe it stands out as atypically bad, as it is extra-cheesy when a character is killed/maimed/etc. specifically because it is felt that the action done to a WOMAN would be more shocking than if it happened to a man. You know, "Yeah, he'd be sad if a guy was killed in front of him, but if a WOMAN was killed in front of him, then you KNOW he would REALLY be upset!"

If I don't think both parts are met, then I think it is just typical bad writing, not having to do with gender issues, specifically.

So if you see me refer to something in a comic book being a "Women in Refrigerators" moment, you now will know exactly what I am referring to.

11 Comments

• At April 9, 2007, Sean wrote:

  I like your definition. It's one thing to have a character killed/maimed/tortured/raped for the purpose of getting a rise out ...

• At April 9, 2007, Conor E wrote:

  As someone who gets annoyed when people scream "Misogyny!" everytime anything vaguely negative happens to a female character, I'm all ...

• At April 9, 2007, JohnE wrote:

  "1. (Objective) A female character is killed/maimed/tortured/raped etc. for the main purpose of eliciting a desired reaction from a male ...

• At April 9, 2007, Eric Grant wrote:

  There's another aspect to this habit, that gets a little misunderstood sometimes, I think. When one writer does a bit ...

• At April 9, 2007, Jacob T. Levy wrote:

  Black Canary was put through the wringer, and it was an uncomfortable read, but she was the lead character in ...

• At April 9, 2007, The Mad Monkey wrote:

  Just a thought...

  I respect Gail Simone very much. Her site lashed out at the hack writers in the business ...

• At April 10, 2007, E. Martín wrote:

  I think the term is extremely unfair to GL writer Ron Marz. The woman in question, Kyle's girlfriend, was an ...

• At April 10, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Hamlet's father is dead before the story begins, right? So I don't get the comparison.

  Alex DeWitt appeared (not counting her ...

• At April 10, 2007, Doron wrote:

  While I agree that character deaths sometimes can be written off just for shock value, especially women in recent times, ...

• At April 11, 2007, DanCJ wrote:

  But the death of Alex DeWitt is a perfect example of the atypically poor treatment female characters get in comic ...

• At April 11, 2007, Alan R. wrote:

  Ian Sholes, an NPR commentator in the 1980s, coined the phrase "That dog's gotta die!" to identify similar cliches in ...

As a quick recap, nepotistic continuity is when a creator has characters from his/her previous works show up in his/her current works. You can usually tell when nepotistic continuity is at hand, because a story will involve an obscure plot point from an old comic, and even if you don't recall offhand who wrote that previous comic, odds are it was the writer of the current comic book.

Paternalistic continuity is when a creator is protective of a certain character, like Jim Starlin with Thanos.

Obligatory Continuity, however, differs from those other terms in that it is not really a voluntary action. The term occurred to me when I was talking with my pal Stony about how he felt Lex Luthor should be a better villain, because Batman has so many great villains, to which I joked, "Like Killer Croc!"

And it struck me - once a character has become "established," future writers are pretty much obligated to use the character eventually, no matter whether a writer would, under normal circumstances, ever actually WANT to use this character.

This is why we keep seeing Killer Croc show up in Batman comics. Seriously, no writer is saying, "Aw man, FINALLY, I get to write the Killer Croc story I've always wanted to tell!" No, it's just that Killer Croc has become "established," and therefore future writers are obligated to EVENTUALLY use him, whether they really have anything to say with him or not.

The same goes for Penguin, Riddler, Mysterio, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, Vulture, Electro, Doctor Octopus and others.

It doesn't matter whether creators really WANT to write about Mr. Sinister (because, well, really, who WANTS to write about Mr. Sinister? The guy is lameness on a stick), they're obligated to - and, surprise, surprise - the X-Books are having a summer crossover centered around none other than Mr. Sinister!

It's an obligation that writers have to deal with when taking on longterm properties, and it's an amusing one, I think.

It also leads to stuff like Peter David coming up with a rather (unintentionally, I think) hilarious origin for the Vulture, as he feels obligated to eventually revisit Spidey's rogues gallery, whether there is a story there or not.

46 Comments

• At February 14, 2007, Bill Reed wrote:

  But Riddler, Mysterio, Doc Ock, and Vulture-- especially Vulture--- are awesome! But maybe that stems from "Well, I've got to ...

• At February 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Oh, it's not a question of how awesome they are, some are awesome, some are not - it is just ...

• At February 14, 2007, Greg Burgas wrote:

  Rucka mentioned this sort of thing in one of the introductions to a Gotham Central trade. He writes about ...

• At February 14, 2007, Matt D wrote:

  Well yeah, but on the other hand, past one appearance in a Hine Colossus mini, no one's used Sinister in ...

• At February 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Sinister was just in Milligan's X-Men run.

• At February 14, 2007, Jaap wrote:

  I thought it was about writers having to reference the death of Peter's Uncle about once an issue and stuff ...

• At February 14, 2007, Matt D wrote:

  Was he?

  I know he used Apocalypse, but I must have completely blanked on the Sinister stuff.

  That was an incredibly forgettable ...

• At February 14, 2007, DanLarkin wrote:

  Milligan did write that Cyclops and Phoenix miniseries that was the closest thing to a good Mr. Sinister story anyone's ...

• At February 14, 2007, David C wrote:

  I'm not sure Killer Croc is actually a great example of Obligatory Continuity. My hunch is that a lot ...

• At February 14, 2007, knox wrote:

  I call shenanigans! Grant and Breyfogle made up new villains for Detective Comics waaay more frequently than they ...

• At February 14, 2007, chitown wrote:

  it's not just the writers, but the fans demand this stuff a lot as well. I just started reading ...

• At February 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  I’m not sure Killer Croc is actually a great example of Obligatory Continuity. My hunch is that a lot of ...

• At February 14, 2007, David C wrote:

  A secondary annoyance about Killer Croc is how he has gradually devolved from "thug with a weird skin condition" to ...

• At February 14, 2007, David C wrote:

  A curious question just occurred to me: are there any characters who once were "obligatory continuity" characters, but who eventually ...

• At February 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Great question, David.

  I'm sure there are some out there, although I can't think of any off hand.

• At February 14, 2007, Derek B. Haas wrote:

  Hobgoblin certainly counts.

• At February 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Excellent call, Derek. You're talking about one who WAS obligatory, but now isn't, right?

• At February 14, 2007, Matt D wrote:

  It's really inconsequencial at this point, but a quick check with a couple of people who follow the X-books more ...

• At February 14, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Sinister wasn't used heavily, but he was there. :) Gambit and Sunfire go to him after becoming Apocalypse's horsemen.

• At February 14, 2007, Matt D wrote:

  Ah yeah, you're right. My bad (twice).

  Drat. Faulty sources (including my memory) abound! I just didn't have time to get ...

• At February 14, 2007, Glenn Simpson wrote:

  I'm not so sure they feel obligated to do anything, in the way you describe. If a writer decides ...

• At February 14, 2007, Ian wrote:

  Carey made Exodus interesting and he reused characters that haven't been seen in a long time.

  I think he genuinely wants ...

• At February 14, 2007, Jeff Albertson wrote:

  Wasn't Croc a wannabe crimeboss when he was introduced -- the guy whose machinations led to the deaths of ...

• At February 14, 2007, Omar Karindu wrote:

  I'd say that the Wrecking Crew and Mr. Hyde over at Marvel are in thispossibly subsidiary category of "convenient continuity" ...

• At February 14, 2007, Jeff wrote:

  In my opinion, the best Croc story was in the DCAU, when the villains play cards and are saying that ...

• At February 14, 2007, JD wrote:

  Actually, in that story, Croc was really Batman in disguise.

  What a great episode that was...

• At February 14, 2007, Matt D wrote:

  I'd also put forward the idea that the larger fan base would be more likely to buy Batman vs Killer ...

• At February 14, 2007, John Seavey wrote:

  I'd say that shocking as it might seem, Doctor Octopus has dropped out of Obligatory Continuity status. He used to ...

• At February 14, 2007, Ben Herman wrote:

  The Joker... I am sooooo sick & tired of the Joker, but every single writer at DC seems to feel ...

• At February 14, 2007, chdb wrote:

  I’d say that shocking as it might seem, Doctor Octopus has dropped out of Obligatory Continuity status. He used to ...

• At February 14, 2007, Omar Karindu wrote:

  Paul Jenkins also took a real shine to Ock, using him in a three-parter in Peter Parker and then as ...

• At February 14, 2007, T. wrote:

  Rucka mentioned this sort of thing in one of the introductions to a Gotham Central trade. He writes about every ...

• At February 14, 2007, David C wrote:

  Y'know, Shooter has this horrible reputation, but an awful lot of what he says seems to make good sense.

  Anyway, a ...

• At February 14, 2007, carpboy wrote:

  Not comics, but last night I finally watched that Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman direct-to-DVD movie they put out three ...

• At February 14, 2007, Punch wrote:

  maybe some writers like Killer Croc?

• At February 15, 2007, stealthwise wrote:

  It seems like the Ultimate books are the worst for this, yes, I know that in most cases this is ...

• At February 15, 2007, Denn wrote:

  The Ult. Shocker hasn't 'become a complete joke' He always was. Every time he shows up, he gets his ass ...

• At February 15, 2007, John Seavey wrote:

  Actually, on thinking about this, a lot of Marvel's B-list villains have dropped a notch or two on the "obligatory" ...

• At February 16, 2007, Apathy Boy wrote:

  I don't like this definition, or at least not your elaboration of it. You haven't demonstrated situations where writers feel ...

• At February 16, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  The summer crossover with Mr. Sinister was editorially mandated.

  Mike Carey might very well enjoy writing Mr. Sinister, but it was ...

• At February 16, 2007, Apathy Boy wrote:

  Oh. So do you think the "obligatory" part of the phrase should include the pressure editors and publishers put on ...

• At February 16, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Gotcha.

  Sorry about that.

  I mean pretty much any obligation - editorial, fan's insistence on old villains showing up, or writers feeling ...

• At February 16, 2007, fanboy d wrote:

  sinister is cool because of fox's x-men cartoon. end of.

• At February 16, 2007, Alun Clewe wrote:

  Just a heads up: Both links in the first sentence go to the same article.

  Which was disappointing to me, because ...

• At February 16, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Fixed it for ya, Alun.

  Check out other definitons by just clicking on the "Comic Book Dictionary" category in the sidebar.

• At March 6, 2007, MAF wrote:

  Mr.Sinister was once cool so was Apocolypse. They have just become "commercial" bad guys.

  Sinister especially has downgraded to pathetic ...

In this regard, I have almost come to look at gimme ideas as almost lazy writing, in the sense that, since the idea is a gimme, the writer doesn't have to work that hard to make the story cool, because the idea itself is so strong.

A major exception to that rule, I think, is when the writer comes UP with the gimme idea on his or her own, instead of using someone else's gimme idea (or an obvious gimme idea - an example of an obvious gimme idea is famous heroes fighting each other). Then I think the writer would be silly NOT to use the gimme idea, as he/she came up with it themselves, so should be the one who gets credit for the idea.

An example of a writer using someone else's gimme idea would be Mark Waid using the gimme idea of Batman being prepared to take down the entire Justice League.

An example of a writer using a gimme idea of his/her own device would be Joe Kelly having Deadpool travel back in time, and having the past be an actual 60s issue of Amazing Spider-Man.

17 Comments

• At October 26, 2006, J to the A.A.P. wrote:

  Another example of a writer using someone else's gimme idea (very nicely, by the way): Robert Kirkman writing Marvel Zombies.

• At October 26, 2006, T. wrote:

  I think it's even worse when a writer thinks his own idea is more of a "gimme idea" than it ...

• At October 26, 2006, OJ wrote:

  How about this "gimme idea"? We pit two sides of the Marvel superheroes universe against each other based on the ...

• At October 26, 2006, GarBut wrote:

  BRIAN wrote:

  "...Mark Waid using the gimme idea of Batman being prepared to take down the entire Justice League."

  So, is ...

• At October 26, 2006, MarkAndrew wrote:

  Like "Monkey in a Wagon vs. Lemur on a Big Wheel?"

• At October 26, 2006, Conor E wrote:

  Wait, was Martian Manhunter REALLY planning to take down the league in Year One? I thoguht he was just gathering ...

• At October 26, 2006, Eric Michael wrote:

  In JLA: Year One, J'onn was not compiling information in order to take down the heroes. He was originally ...

• At October 26, 2006, Mike McGee wrote:

  A gimme idea is an idea that is so good, a comic would be pretty good just by the existence ...

• At October 26, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  I dunno…I think this definition might need some work. Surely there’s no guarantee that even the best idea will compensate ...

• At October 27, 2006, FunkyGreenJerusalem wrote:

  How did the Joe Kelly Deadpool idea work?

  He took a story with a masked villain and said it was Deadpool, ...

• At October 27, 2006, Punch wrote:

  I guess the Dc-Marvel crossovers are the Ultimate Gimme ideas

• At October 27, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  How did the Joe Kelly Deadpool idea work?

  He took a story with a masked villain and said it was Deadpool, ...

• At October 27, 2006, J to the A.A.P. wrote:

  Marvel really needs to re-release the TP of Joe Kelly's Deadpool. Anybody remember Wizard's Deadpool #0? The cover had the ...

• At October 28, 2006, Omar Karindu wrote:

  Surely Bendis's Secret War was the biggest waste of the best "gimme idea" in recent memory...not least because the gimme ...

• At October 29, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  It was a GREAT idea to answer the question, “How do all the loser villains keep getting their super-expensive weaponry ...

• At July 2, 2007, dcszxachks wrote:

  Hello! Good Site! Thanks you! sholyvdnzqrzmv

• At January 4, 2008, The Mutt wrote:

  The ultimate Gimme Idea was Star Spangled War Stories. Soldiers vs Dinosaurs. It's a gimme.

Quoting Wikipedia's entry for colorforms, the toy colorforms are "paper-thin, die-cut vinyl sheet images and shapes that could be applied to a slick cardboard background board, much like placing paper-dolls against a paper backdrop. The images would stick to the background via static cling and could be repositioned to create new scenes."

Therefore, when I refer to a colorform comic book cover, I'm talking about a cover where it appears as though the cover artist drew a background (often by copying a photograph of a locale) and then photoshopped other figures s/he drew on to the background, making the figures not exactly appear as though they organically belong on the background, but rather, that they are like colorforms on a background.

11 Comments

• At September 24, 2006, Tom Foss wrote:

  Incidentally, at least two comics (Superman: The Man of Steel #30 and Worlds Collide #1) have had literal Colorform covers. ...

• At September 24, 2006, moose n squirrel wrote:

  Here's a question (since I think I might have been one of the ones who asked you what a colorform ...

• At September 24, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  It can be done well, sure. Most of the time, though, it just seems like almost laziness.

  I didn't notice you ...

• At September 24, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Incidentally, at least two comics (Superman: The Man of Steel #30 and Worlds Collide #1) have had literal Colorform covers. ...

• At September 25, 2006, Evan Waters wrote:

  Could you post some examples? It sounds like the sort of thing I'd have to see to understand.

• At September 27, 2006, Erik wrote:

  What about covers like Action #419 where Superman was superimposed over a photo background?

• At February 17, 2007, sharon wortman farnham wrote:

  hi I have a new way to make comics check me out some time look up my website and buy ...

• At February 19, 2007, sharon wortman farnham wrote:

  i like my back grounds they go somewhat fast because i am the women who pastes dolls that look like ...

• At February 20, 2007, sharon wortman farnham wrote:

  how do I send my comics to you for review ?? Sharon Wortman Farnham author International Book Of Love A ...

• At February 23, 2007, chroom wrote:

  Sharon --

  Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but aside from the book sounding like nothing I'd be interested ...

• At March 12, 2007, sharon wortman farnham wrote:

  The book is very good. Judging from your manners its about something you may not no any thing about love ...

In his piece, Larsen discusses how essentially (at least for the Big Two, as he rightfully points out that creator-owned titles such as his own Savage Dragon are much less likely to be swayed by fan sentiment), the readers make their decisions with their wallets. If they want something gone, it'll be gone by them not purchasing the title. Larsen points to the hordes of fans who complained about Chuck Austen, but yet they still bought Austen's comics, so Austen was in no danger of being replaced.

Well, right there is the slight thing that I think Larsen is missing, which I call the Venom Discretion Test. I name it after the Venom "ongoing" series that Marvel had from 1993 until 1998, where Venom had an "ongoing" series of mini-series for five years. Why did Venom not just have an ongoing, since he was so popular with the fans? Bob Harras, Marvel's Editor-in-Chief, fought hard against it, because he did not want Marvel to give a villain like Venom his own series just because he was popular. However, the popularity of the character "forced" him to meet the fans in the proverbial middle and give them an "ongoing" series of Venom mini-series (by the by, Harras wasn't even Editor-in-Chief when this series of mini-series thing began, so I suppose Tom DeFalco felt the same way, although I've never heard DeFalco's thoughts on the subject).

Finally, though, in 1998, Venom's popularity reached a point where, according to Tom Brevoort in Wizard #72, "Reader interest weakened enough for Editor in Chief Bob Harras to justify killing it. The return on the book had declined to the point where any immediate financial reward was overshadowed by Bob's discomfort with the character starring in his own title." On Spider-Fan, reader Joel Mathies complained about this in a piece for Spider-Fan, "Venom was always in the top 100 sales and usually sold better than other headline titles from Marvel and even some of the Spider-Man books."

This is what I mean by the Venom Discretion Test. For all the talk about sales being the end point, it really isn't always. Often, it's more about GREAT sales can forestall problems, but that's it.

Take, for instance, Larsen's example of Chuck Austen. Larsen writes, "A short while back a number of readers (accompanied by a legion of trolls) jumped on the 'I hate Chuck Austen' bandwagon and badmouthed his work to beat the band. But as long as readers continued to purchase the books he produced, there was no reason for publishers to show Chuck the door."

Yet, when DC sent Austen packing as writer of Action Comics, Action was selling about 50% BETTER than it was before he took over as writer! An average issue of Austen's Action Comics (I took one where it'd be fair to everyone, a non-crossover, post-"NEW CREATIVE TEAM!" issue, as I didn't want anything to artificially pump up the sales), #817, sold 45,178 copies. A typical issue of the previous run the year before? 31,959 copies. So it was INCREASING sales! What it WASN'T doing, however, was selling astonishing numbers. Later writers did not increase the sales much, as a typical issue of the following creative team's Action Comics (I picked #833 as a typical issue, although some of the issues that tied into Infinite Crisis sold much higher, in the high 50,000s) sold 44,613 copies (all these sales numbers are according to ICv2, so feel free to disagree with their calculations).

In any event, while yes, staggering amount of sales will allow people to "get away" with stuff, just plain old GOOD sales (Austen's Action Comics #817 was ranked 32nd, pre-Austen it was ranked in the high 50s!!) does not help you. In those instances, the fans are NOT the real editors, and the book is fully within the realm of what the company and its editors feel is "good."

Note, the Venom Discretion Test sometimes goes the OTHER way, where editors will fight for LOW-selling titles, where they use their discretion to keep around a book that "the real editors" have said they do not want anymore, due to them not buying the book.

19 Comments

• At July 29, 2006, Katherine F. wrote:

  Interesting. The whole "the fans are the real editors!" thing is bogus for three reasons: firstly, as Larsen points out, ...

• At July 29, 2006, Lynxara wrote:

  Editors also have the power to request changes in material, like altering dialogue or a given plot point. At best, ...

• At July 29, 2006, Evan Waters wrote:

  I think another example might be Dan Didio's stated disinterest in punishing a "funny superhero" book. He points to PLASTIC ...

• At July 29, 2006, stephen cade wrote:

  Hmm, so that's why Marvel didn't sack Erik from Amazing Spider-Man way back when--even though part of almost every letter ...

• At July 29, 2006, Winterteeth wrote:

  The VDT was used on Young Justice and Teen Titans prior to Graduation Day, according to Didio. They were ...

• At July 29, 2006, JR wrote:

  "I am curious to see if sales dropped, raised or were unaffected on those issues of Teen Titans that Liefeld ...

• At July 30, 2006, Filipe wrote:

  The first issue of Liefields run did better than the bokj's avarage, the second one drop below, so I guess ...

• At July 30, 2006, Lynxara wrote:

  Today's market is what it is because Watchmen still sells, and in fact, sells very well.

• At July 30, 2006, Bright-Raven wrote:

  As I said over on CBR's Image Boards, the "voice of the internet" means very little in terms of sales.

  To ...

• At July 30, 2006, Winterteeth wrote:

  Watchmen sells as a trade paperback in bookstores. I'm asking if 12 individual issues of a mature superhero comic ...

• At July 30, 2006, David Blackshore wrote:

  Of course, with any discussion of sales figures it's important to keep in mind that these are not sell-through numbers, ...

• At July 30, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Well, David, to be fair, REorders of the first Liefeld Teen Titans issue ALSO cracked the Top 300.

  But yes, it's ...

• At July 31, 2006, David Blackshore wrote:

  That's interesting. That somewhat refutes the Byrne hypothesis of comics retailing--store owners/managers will order according to personal prejudices rather ...

• At July 31, 2006, Jer wrote:

  Venom Discretion Test - I like it. It works in a number of ways too. The example I ...

• At July 31, 2006, red_Ricky wrote:

  I liked Larsen's column, but I think he fails to realize, or mention, four things:

  1- Any "editing" that a fan ...

• At July 31, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  4- If the criticism is well constructed, has merit, and it can stand on its own; then it shouldn’t matter ...

• At July 31, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  That’s interesting. That somewhat refutes the Byrne hypothesis of comics retailing–store owners/managers will order according to personal prejudices rather than ...

• At July 31, 2006, ddw wrote:

  yeah

• At August 2, 2006, Michael wrote:

  It's also prudent to remember that those Venom miniseries, on the whole, sucked.

A karaoke comic is a run on a comic that follows a previous run very closely, but as it is a copy, ends up being inferior to the original product.

Some examples:

Chris Claremont and Alan Davis recent Uncanny X-Men run was basically doing a karaoke version of their run on Excalibur. Nightcrawler and Rachel Summers are members of the team, Jamie Braddock played a big part and characters like Courtney Ross were dusted off for the first time in a decade or so. The more recent run, though, lacked the humor and creativity of their initial run on Excalibur. I mean, a race of Saurons in the Savage Land? That soooo would not make it into the pages of the Cross-Time Caper.

Mark Waid's second run on Flash. A perfect example of someone who just should have left earlier than later (although I freely admit that I admire his dedication to the book). His second run on the book (#142-162) just lacked the inventiveness of his first run on the book, which still stands up as one of the best superhero runs of recent memory (especially #61-100). Here, in the second run, Waid ended up being influenced too much by both his own earlier run and the work of Grant Morrison. Regarding the first, Waid brought us yet ANOTHER storyline where either Wally or Linda was lost in time/space/whatever. This time, however, BOTH of them went missing! In addition, Abra Kadabra ended up being the big bad guy, making this literally the FIFTH time Abra Kadabra was used during Waid's run (the others being in the #70s, in Zero Hour, in Underworld Unleashed, and in the story where Linda was frozen). Regarding the latter, Morrison's big thing during the period was to evoke the Silver Age. Well, Waid definitely evoked the Silver Age, only Waid evoked the stuff from the Silver Age that probably was better left untouched. Barry Allen's Evil Twin Brother? *Groan*

Not to pick on Waid too much (as I like his work), but his run on JLA was also, to me, an example of karaoke comics. His work really struck me as "Grant Morrison-lite," even going so far as to make his first storyline as regular writer be a cast-off idea of Morrison's (the Batman protocols). This irked me because Waid's two previous fill-ins (not counting the ones he wrote with Devin Grayson) were, while still written in a Morrison-esque style, still had enough Waid in them to really stand out. His later issues, in my view, did not. Likewise, Joe Kelly also opened up with some karaoke comics, but quickly went away from that style (not to the benefit of the comic, though).

Garth Ennis did not appear to really have many more stories in the vein of "Welcome Back, Frank" left in him, but that did not keep him from writing another 28-30 issues of Punisher in the same style. Luckily, I think even Ennis realized he was just singing over the same tune, and relaunched the title, and it is much different now.

Early in his solo Justice League Europe run, after Keith Giffen had left the book, Gerard Jones seemed to try to keep the style in the same humorous tone...but really did not match up with the humor of Giffen at all, so the book was like a bad karaoke performance, until Jones changed directions with the book (at which point it was still bad, but at least it wasn't a bad karaoke performance).

Can anyone think of any others?

16 Comments

• At June 7, 2006, JR wrote:

  Sorta like Geoff Johns trying to capture the feel of Marv Wolfman's Titans work? Or more like Denny O'Neil's ...

• At June 8, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Geoff Johns' Teen Titans run is an excellent choice.

• At June 8, 2006, Lee wrote:

  I always thought Dan Jurgens run on Thor was uh... inspired... by Walt Simonson's excellent tenure, but not executed nearly ...

• At June 8, 2006, Jeff R. wrote:

  Every Sin City story but the first? (Actually, I'll give him the second, too, as part of the original ...

• At June 8, 2006, Mike Loughlin wrote:

  Post-Claremont'90s X-Men: like the Claremont stories, but more convoluted, featuring less appealing characters, and having plots that went nowhere twice ...

• At June 8, 2006, T. wrote:

  Yeah, Johns Teen Titans is basically Wolfman's minus the crying and losing all the time. He seems to be ...

• At June 8, 2006, Erik wrote:

  1 - Greg Rucka taking over for Brubaker on Gotham Central. Rucka seems like Brubaker with not quite the ...

• At June 9, 2006, adam! wrote:

  Morrison's NEWXMEN was Claremont's XMEN mixed in with INVISIBLES, although diluted to hell.

  a lot of Gaiman's short stuff from various ...

• At June 9, 2006, adam! wrote:

  and i just realized that the comment about Gaiman should've been in IDEA REPERTOIRE. sorry.

• At June 9, 2006, Smut Gremlin wrote:

  John Ridley's work on The Authority: Human on the Inside was basically a rehash of ideas from throughout Millar's run ...

• At June 9, 2006, Bill Reed wrote:

  But... Justice League Europe 37-50 was awesome.

• At June 9, 2006, Gokitalo wrote:

  "Greg Rucka taking over for Brubaker on Gotham Central. Rucka seems like Brubaker with not quite the same grit and ...

• At June 9, 2006, Omar Karindu wrote:

  I certainly felt that Denny O'Neil's run on Daredevil was a karaoke version of the Miller run that preceded it. ...

• At July 25, 2006, yo wrote:

  Everything from Marvel that started with "Infinity" and didn't end with "Gauntlet."

• At November 26, 2006, The Rear wrote:

  Bob Gale and Phil Winslade did a story in Daredevil #20 to 25 where Daredevil was put on trial for ...

• At December 1, 2007, Adam Weissman wrote:

  Ditto on John's Titans, but speaking of Johns' Infinite Crisis is the best book I can think of in this ...

I do not think having an idea repertoire is a NEGATIVE thing, really. It is just something that you notice when you read a writer a lot, that certain ideas keep showing up.

Brian Bendis has now killed off Scott Lang twice in his comics.

Chris Claremont uses slave traders a lot.

Karl Kesel is obsessed with old Kirby characters.

Greg Rucka has introduced two strong female characters, both of whom were totally fixated on the star, male character.

What other idea repertoires spring to your mind?

31 Comments

• At June 7, 2006, Smut Gremlin wrote:

  Warren Ellis making the same point that turning invisible should or does cause the Invisible Woman to go blind in ...

• At June 7, 2006, nicholas wrote:

  Grant Morrison has a constant theme of "evolution/new replacing old/enemies being the same thing/everything is part of everything" through much ...

• At June 7, 2006, moose n squirrel wrote:

  Morrison's very specific use of metafiction as a metaphor for control since Animal Man (i.e., the sudden appearance of the ...

• At June 7, 2006, moose n squirrel wrote:

  That is to say, Morrison uses metafiction, but isn't interested in metafiction per se - he's interested in using it ...

• At June 8, 2006, Dizzy wrote:

  Ellis has the superhero as shaman note that he has used in Doc Strange, Authority and X-Man. And probably some ...

• At June 8, 2006, John Seavey wrote:

  DeMatteis uses Hindu cyclical history in at least a couple of places (his runs on Doctor Fate and X-Factor, I ...

• At June 8, 2006, Mike Loughlin wrote:

  Peter David's tendency to incorporate nerdy pop-culture (e.g. Star Trek, British comedies) into his scripts. I know, lots of writers ...

• At June 8, 2006, Chris Arrant wrote:

  Off the top of my head, Ellis has used the 'war garden' concept in STORMWATCH, STRANGE KILLINGS and now NEXTWAVE. ...

• At June 8, 2006, Ian Astheimer wrote:

  Ellis has also pulled out the "I eat raw meat" card a couple times recently. In Desolation Jones, Jeronimus ...

• At June 8, 2006, Ken Raining wrote:

  James Robinson likes to think that everybody is as obsessed with old movies as he is. Two particularly silly ...

• At June 8, 2006, Kitty wrote:

  Garth Ennis created two characters who had their willies cut off and both remarked about either having or not having ...

• At June 8, 2006, David C wrote:

  "Shockingly, there has been no mention yet of old movies in his new Batman arc, but there’s still one issue ...

• At June 8, 2006, Anonymous wrote:

  Mark Millar always has superheroes partying with celebrities. I know he did it in The Authority, The Ultimates and in ...

• At June 8, 2006, Jesse wrote:

  I've gotta admit, when I read the term "idea repertoire," I thought Brian had something grander in mind, more along ...

• At June 8, 2006, T. wrote:

  Isn't this just a fancier name for a "tic?"

• At June 8, 2006, John wrote:

  Warren Ellis tends to integrate memes or memetic programming into a lot of his work. Off the top of ...

• At June 8, 2006, res196e7 wrote:

  I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned John Byrne's repetitive use of young (usually teenaged), spunky female characters: Kitty Pryde in ...

• At June 9, 2006, adam! wrote:

  Gaiman, and his Chestertonian resolution, most previously seen in Mirrormask.

• At June 9, 2006, John Seavey wrote:

  Garth Ennis, when working on any book appearing in a shared universe, will team up his hero with a popular ...

• At June 9, 2006, Omar Karindu wrote:

  John Byrne tends to run some version or other of Dark Phoenix in all of his comics, in which a ...

• At June 12, 2006, tenzil wrote:

  Claremont's idea repertoires are like a checklist of alternative sexuality:

  - Bondage/Leather clothes, even when not age or situation appropriate.

  - ...

• At June 12, 2006, T. wrote:

  Tenzil, good job.

  Another Claremont tic - really awkward fanfic-style (sorry brian!) flirtation between two platonic friends that comes out of ...

• At June 12, 2006, Omar Karindu wrote:

  Claremont's tics could be their own post, really....he also seems to do an enormous amount of nonconsnsual body-mod stuff: Spiral's ...

• At June 16, 2006, Marionette wrote:

  Rape/sexual abuse as origin motivation for women rerun endlessly from Red Sonja onwards. 'Cos, like, you couldn't motivate a ...

• At July 1, 2006, Ben wrote:

  Claremont: Exposition up the wazoo

  Ennis: Irish and German characters, bars, smoking

  Ellis: Smoking, characters threatening use of unsual phycial harm

  Waid: Peter ...

• At July 17, 2006, Ben Herman wrote:

  Warren Ellis loves to write sardonic, trenchcoat-wearing, chain-smoking, British black ops type characters.

• At October 30, 2006, dave wrote:

  Claremont loves to try and write English, Irish, or Scottish accents, despite the fact that he has clearly never set ...

• At June 9, 2007, Anonymous wrote:

  Morrison: Themes of chaos vs. order (Zenith, Invisibles, Kid Eternity, arguably Seaguy, others). Rejection of "grim and gritty" superheroics in ...

• At June 9, 2007, RachelEvil wrote:

  And I spend all that time writing that post without filling in my name. Me = dumbass.

• At May 2, 2009, eaten by a grue wrote:

  I forget the writer, but didn't the character of Mantis make an appearance in 3 different universes?

• At September 3, 2009, Mary Warner wrote:

  The Mantis stories were by Steve Englehart.

Notable examples of Formatitis include:

A. Stories written for serialized anthologies (the short length and constant need to recap can rob the story of some impact)

B. Stories written for "the trade" (when a 3-part story has to be stretched to 6 issues. A notable example is the Geoff Johns issue of Avengers that was rejected, as Johns was told to split the story into two issues - both issues seemed a bit sparse).

C. Stories written for longer story pages without deserving the longer story pages (leads to a lot of padding)

D. Stories written for short story length that deserve more (story ends up feeling as though an opportunity was missed).

Any other examples of formatitis that you folks can think of?

2 Comments

• At May 31, 2006, Pol Rua wrote:

  I tend to get a Option D quite a bit from the prestige format Elseworlds. From 'Gotham by Gaslight' on, ...

• At July 30, 2006, fanboy d wrote:

  *ahem* wasn't dkr 4 prestige format books? those were awesome Pol Rua.

  I say i see B the most. Everythin is ...

Very often, this occurs during outside writing, but it does not always have to be outside writing. It can sometimes just be when a writer personally wants a story to go a certain way, but usually, it happens in outside writing, when an editor tells a writer that "X" HAS to occur, so the writer will just have X happen, and not spend the time to see if it makes sense or not.

The era started in May of 2001, with the launch of both Grant Morrison's New X-Men, but also Peter Milligan and Mike Allred's X-Force, plus Joe Casey's Uncanny X-Men and X's The Brotherhood. Not all of these projects worked out, of course (Casey and X's projects basically flopped), but this time marked an age when the X-Books were willing to at least TRY new things. Other examples include the X-Factor mini-series and the David Tischman run on Cable.

The era officially ended with Morrison's last issue of New X-Men in March 2004, but really, it probably ended a few months earlier, in late 2003, with the capitulation of Marvel editorial regarding the Princess Diana storyline in X-Statix. That was a clear statement of a return to conservative thinking on the X-Books.

Ah well, at least we got almost three years of progressive comics!

And, thanks to Joe, we also have a term to refer to it.

7 Comments

• At May 29, 2006, Russell wrote:

  ...and the Dan Mishkin run on Cable

  I'm pretty sure it was David Tischman. I don't think I've ever read ...

• At May 29, 2006, Brian Cronin wrote:

  Thanks, Russell!

• At May 29, 2006, Russell wrote:

  No problem. Love the site, and the bells & whistles Wordpress provides are super-keen. I highly encourage you ...

• At July 7, 2006, Blue Spider wrote:

  I will continue to refer to it as the Grant Morrison Era of X-Men Comics.

  Because I pulled it out of ...

• At August 6, 2006, Sov wrote:

  Good job.

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• At October 8, 2007, Auto Insurance Rating wrote:

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The Ron Frenz Rule of Costume Design is a simple one. Don't design a comic book costume too ornately. With every costume you design, always do so so that, if Ron Frenz were ever to draw it, it would look cool.

This is NOT meant to be a knock on Ron Frenz at ALL. His style is just geared towards simple designs, not ornate ones.

Therefore, if he can make your costume look basically the way you designed it, then you passed the test.

Examples of costumes that FAIL the Ron Frenz rule of costume design include the alien War Machine armor, a lot of Iron Man armors over the years, Metamorpho during Gerry Jones' JLA run (that's a slight exception, as it did not look good in JLA EITHER), Jericho's costume, Namorita's current look, etc.

Feel free to mention any costumes that you think break the rule!

7 Comments

• At May 29, 2006, ninjawookie wrote:

  sister superior of the JLA Elite, the lining on the inside of her jacket.

  Does that count though? it was a ...

• At June 11, 2006, Craig wrote:

  You mention Jericho, but I think you should specifically state that the Ron Frenz rule of design runs counter to ...

• At July 1, 2006, Ben wrote:

  I think the rule should be design a costume, that, if ever done in real life the wearer won't ...

• At July 17, 2006, Ben Herman wrote:

  Jack of Hearts' costume leaped to mind immediately!

  And I agree with Craig's observation "the Ron Frenz rule of design runs ...

• At July 17, 2006, SanctumSanctorumComix wrote:

  Jack of Hearts original costume ROCKED SO MUCH $#!T is wasn't funny.

  DAMN that was a GREAT costume!

  SURE it took FOREVER ...

• At June 10, 2007, Sam wrote:

  Anything designed by Rob Liefeld has a place on the list of costumes that break the Ron Frenz rule.

  What ...

• At June 10, 2007, Brian Cronin wrote:

  The Neal Adams' designed Robin costume

  The Fantastic Four costumes

  Colossus' original outfit

  Nightcrawler's original outfit

  Hal Jordan's GL uniform

Here is a good definition that I found of "Mary Sue": MARY SUE (n.): 1. A variety of story, first identified in the fan fiction community, but quickly recognized as occurring elsewhere, in which normal story values are grossly subordinated to inadequately transformed personal wish-fulfillment fantasies, often involving heroic or romantic interactions with the cast of characters of some popular entertainment. 2. A distinctive type of character appearing in these stories who represents an idealized version of the author. 3. A cluster of tendencies and characteristics commonly found in Mary Sue-type stories. 4. A body of literary theory, originally generated by the fanfic community, which has since spread to other fields (f.i., professional SF publishing) because it's so darn useful. The act of committing Mary Sue-ism is sometimes referred to as "self-insertion." Warren Ellis is considered to be a prominent user of Mary Sues (Pete Wisdom in Excalibur, for one).

Am I missing any other significant, non-Ellis Mary Sues?

5 Comments

• At May 29, 2006, T. wrote:

  I think Fell is becoming more and more of a Mary Sue.

• At June 3, 2006, DanLarkin wrote:

  I think Doug Ramsey in New Mutants was one of Claremont's many Mary-Sues. I always thought it was telling ...

• At July 1, 2006, Ben wrote:

  Garth Ennis' Jesse Custer?

  Warren Ellis' Spider Jerusalem?

  Peter David's merged Hulk?

• At July 20, 2006, Mysterio wrote:

  Not comic related, but Wesley Crusher from "Sta Trek: TNG" was very much a Mary Sue of Gene Roddenberry. Wes' ...

• At November 1, 2006, Papa Sis wrote:

  Ellis actually wrote a piece for Bad Signal about this just recently

  http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=3177

  As he points out, just because he writes about ...